3.2 Attachment 5I A P P E A R A N C E S:
2
Los Gatos Planning 9 Mary Badame, Vice Chair
Commissioners: Charles Erekson
4 Melanie Hanssen
D. Michael Kane
5 Tom O'Donnell
Joanne Talesfore
6
7 Town Manager: Laurel Prevetti
8 Planning Manager: Joel Paulson
9 Town Attorney: Robert Schultz
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11 Transcribed by: Vicki L. Blandin
(510) 337-1558
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ATTACHMENT 5
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2 P R O C E E D I N G S:
3
DAVID WEISSMAN: Are these comments to be on any
4
5 area, or just on the color averaging?
6 VICE CHAIR BADAME: It can be the color averaging
7 and the visibility analysis.
a DAVID WEISSMAN: I want to give one example of
9 how any obvious financial conflict of interest has affected
10 what Davidon wrote in their letter in your packet. On page
11 3, Mr. Abbs discusses Tree 607 as an example of how even a
12
tree with a very sparse canopy—his words—can provide
13
screening.
14
Why select this tree as an example? Because it is
1s
a major screening tree for the proposed house on Lot 7, but
16
I maintain that Tree 607 doesn't have a sparse canopy, and
17
in fact would get around 60-70% screening credit under Lee
1s
19 Quintana and my proposed methodology.
20 Want a sparse canopy tree? Just look at a major
Y1 screening tree, Tree 626, seen to the right of labeled Tree
22 607 in Davidon's provided photo. The tree is actually
23 difficult to pick out, because it's canopy is so sparse as
24 to be almost transparent. The orange netting in Davidon's
25 photo is easily seen through Tree 627 even during leaf -out.
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But more importantly, another reason for Davidon
to not tout Tree 626 is because the consulting arborist
recently downgraded its structural rating and preservation
suitability to Fair/Poor because of the fungal wood decay
associated with a mechanical injury to its trunk. This
fungus could easily kill this tree. I asked Mr. Abbs if he
really thought the Planning Commission wouldn't see through
your blatant deception at using Tree 607 as an example. I
haven't even mentioned that Tree 607 also has a large
mechanical injury.
Mr. Abbs also contends that all oak trees can be
assessed for screening at any time of the year.
Conveniently, he ignores that the consulting arborist said,
regarding Tree 607, that this tree and all deciduous trees
on Highlands should be checked during June to better assess
their condition. Checking a deciduous tree during the
winter may not reveal whether the tree is even alive or
dead.
But then Mr. Abbs also says in his letter, on
page 2, and I quote, "Davidon believes every tree should be
allowed for screening." Sounds like that includes even dead
trees.
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Mr. Abbs likes to claim how the Highland's oak
trees are not doing well because of the drought, but you
are smart enough to have read in just about every one of
the consulting arborist's tree reports for each lot that
many, many trees have also been impacted by lack of
required tree protection fences, resulting in repeated
mechanical injuries, excessive pruning, and compactions by
heavy equipment and storage of heavy materials under tree
canopies.
Lastly, Davidon would like for us to believe, as
they say on page two, that the life expectancy of a tree in
poor condition can be the same as a tree in good condition.
Could be, but highly unlikely, according to the consulting
arborist who says that poor trees can be expected to
decline regardless of management. Clearly Davidon, given
their track record, is the last entity that you should
listen to when you consider how to improve the Hillside
Standards.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Dr. Weissman. Do
any of the Commissioners have any questions for Dr.
Weissman? Commissioner Kane.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Dr. Weissman, therefore what?
(What would we do?
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DAVID WEISSMAN: Lee Quintana and I have provided
(with you a draft ordinance.
COMMISSIONER KANE: And that specifically
addresses your concern?
DAVID WEISSMAN: That specifically addresses all
of my concerns, and the concerns expressed by numerous
Planning Commission meetings, the Town Council meeting back
in May, and going back to what is expressed in the Hillside
Standards. We have tried to be positive. We have tried to
be objective.
COMMISSIONER KANE: This is page 1 of Exhibit 4,
where you give seven references to past meetings?
DAVID WEISSMAN: No.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Let me rephrase that. On page
1 of Exhibit 4, you make reference to seven different
meetings, and I was at some of those meetings as a Planning
Commissioner and you remember them better than I do. It`s
an impressive piece of work. Thank you.
DAVID WEISSMAN: Thank you. No, I am referring,
Commissioner Kane, to the pages that are in your packet.
COMMISSIONER KANE: The new one?
DAVID WEISSMAN: Yes.
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JOEL PAULSON: Just for reference, it's the first
four pages of Exhibit 1 for the Study Session Report.
COMMISSIONER KANE: I've got it. Thank you.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Any further questions? Thank
you, Dr. Weissman. I will now call Steve Abbs to the
podium.
STEVE ABBS: Hi, good afternoon. I'm Steve Abbs
with Davidon Homes.
I have submitted a letter of correspondence to
express our opinions of (inaudible) methodology. Basically,
in a nutshell, we actually think the current Hillside
Design Guidelines work. I think what staff is proposing as
far as amendments to the methodology are good proposals,
but I think there is one thing that we need to know, that
we're here for, is that there may be come clarifications to
the interpretations of the Hillside Development Standards
and Guidelines, but I don't think it warrants a full
rewrite or changing of the rules of the guidelines.
Staff is very competent. They're on top of
things. You have a Town Arborist and a Consulting Arborist
that are well respected and very knowledgeable. I think the
Planning Commission should listen to what they say. They're
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we:
I the experts and they should have a lot of say in how these
2 amendments are proposed.
3
Basically this evening I want to make sure that
4
everybody keeps focused on that the visibility is standing
s
on the viewing platform viewing with the naked eye. The
6
level of detail in looking at Mr. Weissman's photos, that's
a photo zoomed in from a drone; you're not going to see the
a
level of detail of seeing leaves, trigs and branches. What
9
10 you are going to see is a massing of a tree canopy .from
11 standing on a viewing platform with a naked eye.
12 Screening does occur from these very sparse
13 trees. I've shown in my letter that it's very obvious that
14 screening is occurring from the very sparsest trees with
15 very limited foliage. Then also, if you put a house behind
16 those very sparse trees that have an LRV compliant color to
17 them, that earth tone color,
you're not going to see
18 anything. Right now you barely see very bright orange
19
netting behind these trees.
20
Another interpretation that I think the Planning
21
Commission should discuss tonight is the fact of using
22
23 protected oak trees as part of screening. Back in 2009
24 Mayor Wasserman actually interpreted the Hillside
zs Development Guidelines to reduce visibility and visible
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1 impact by the use of screen trees. Councilperson McNutt
2 agreed, encouraging that screen trees should be used.
3 The trees that exist out there are in poor
4
condition. In the situation we have on Lot 10, there is one
s
tree that was in fair condition when we started design, It
6
got downgraded to a poor condition, and based on some
suggestions by Mr. Weissman, that tree wouldn't be able to
e
be used. Now, the question is why wouldn't an applicant be
9
able to install a brand new Coast Live Oak tree that would
to
provide immediate screening? When they grow over time, they
11
12 provide more screening over time. It would be better for
13 the environment. It provides better sustainability to the
14 oak woodland, and it would mitigate the visibility of the
is houses. It just seems like it's a win-win for everyone. But
16 there's a misinterpretation of landscape screening that I
17 think the Planning Commission should talk about.
is VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you very much, Mr.
19 Abbs. Commissioner O'Donnell has a question for you.
20 COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: We've heard some
21
references to mechanical damage to various and sundry
22
trees, and I realize you were not the first people to
23
develop this property, so I don't know where these
24
mechanical injuries came from. Can you tell us a little bit
25
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I about what care you used to see that there was no damage to
2 the trees while you were working on it?
3
STEVE ABBS: The trees that Mr. Weissman was
4
referring to on Lot 7 were Trees 607 and 626. We have had
5
no construction activity at all on those lots. Ms. Debbie
6
Ellis is here; she can speak to what she has seen as far as
7
s what a mechanical injury to that tree is, but as far as I
9 know, there hasn't been any activity on that lot. Again,
10 Debby Ellis can speak to this, but it could have been a
11 wound from a fallen limb, for all I know. As far as Davidon
12 is concerned, we have not done any construction actually on
13 that lot to do any damage to these trees.
14 The one thing that Mr. Weissman brings up in this
15 picture is that yeah, in my letter I didn't specifically
16 bring up Tree 626, but the sparseness of Trees 607 and 626
17 are exactly the same. The purpose of my letter was to
is clearly identify a very sparse tree and the fact that from
19
a viewing platform it clearly shows a screen of that tree.
20
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Was your question answered?
21
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Yes.
22
23 VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Mr. Abbs. Any
24 further questions? Thank you.
25 I will now call Bess Wiersema.
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1 1 BESS WIERSEMA: Hi. you guys know me. I'm Bess,
2 Ifrom Studio3.
3 I have a lot of clients over the past couple of
4
years that we've been bringing to town, and some of the
s
existing house colors are significantly greater in value
6
than the 30 LRV that the Town has been looking at with
regard to Hillside Standards, and it poses a problem for
a
most of the projects that we have.
9
I understand from your last study session that
to
you guys have considered something in terms of—and I could
11
12 be wrong on this—if 25% of the house is exposed, then the
13 30 LRV number stays intact, but if less than that is
14 exposed or screened, then you would consider something
15 other than that.
16 I just wanted to bring to your attention some of
17 the issues with LRV that I have a professional problem
is with, and my clients do as well.
19 My first bullet point, an LRV of 30 or below.
20
Note the house color that is far darker than the average
21
colors used in most homes in the Los Gatos hillside, at
22
least the projects that we are seeing, except those
23
reflective of an antiquated Mountain or old Tahoe type
24
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1 style. I brought some LRV color chips I'll show you in a
2 second, if I have time.
3
An LRV of 30 or below is inconsistent with
4
certain architectural styles, such as Spanish or
5
Mediterranean, as well as a lot of the Craftsmans. I just
6
think it creates kind of a bastardized character from an
7
e architectural standpoint. These are styles that are often
9 used in hillside, because their roof pitches are lower, so
10 to have to do something that has a color that's
11 inconsistent with that type of home is often a problem.
12 I also think that the imposition of LRV of 30 or
13 below creates inconsistent character in neighborhoods,
14 mostly where we're doing remodels or significant additions.
15 Most homes in neighborhoods are significantly greater than
16 that in the number.
17 An LRV of 30 or below is in direct conflict with
1e the design guidelines, even Section 1 of the hillside
19
specific one where it says number three, compatible with
20
the surrounding neighborhood and respectful of neighbors. A
21
lot of the houses, even most recently one that you guys saw
22
here on Forrester Road, all of those houses have an LRV
23
24 sitting at 40 or above, and often greater than that.
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My thoughts on how to make this concept work as
intended is to consider an LRV of greater than 30 on a
project -by -project basis that is in keeping with the
neighborhood average LRV so that a newer project doesn't
stand out as a sore thumb. Consider an LRV of greater than
30 if it is true to the architectural style, and therefore
provides further integrity of the overall design. Consider
a blended LRV concept for the whole building, and consider
the use of further guidelines, such as if the project can
be seen from viewing platforms, reduced LRV, matching the
LRV quotient to the immediate neighborhood average, and
addressing materials as part of that color.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Ms. Wiersema. I
have questions. Commissioner Hanssen had her hand up first.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I understood all your
comments, but the proposal that is in the drafted text is
to incorporate LRV averaging, so do you have additional
issues with the idea of the LRV averaging? I understand all
of the points, but I think that was the whole reason that
the Town Council wanted to go forward with LRV averaging
for the houses that were less than 25% visible.
BESS WIERSEMA: But it's an average of what?
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I COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: That's one of my questions
2 that I would ask of Staff, but the concept, I mean what
3 issues do you have with the concept? Because all of your
4
comments that you just made were relative to...
s
BESS WIERSEMA: I think the number is important.
6
We did a quick analysis of just everyone's houses, even for
s you guys sitting up here, and I think Commissioner
9 O'Donnell was the only one that hit the number; I know he's
10 not in a hillside.
11 But I think understanding what the number is and
12 how the average is taken, is it volume surface area as
13 visible from the street out of the 25%, just definition
14 around that, because 30 is a pretty heavy-duty number to
15 hit, and very inconsistent with most of our existing
16 neighborhoods.
17 COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: A follow up question on
1e that is that you had mentioned color chips. I actually did
19
some research on my own and I looked at what LRV values are
20
on the scale, and it occurred to me that especially if you
21
were doing gray colors, obviously the lowest LRV is black
22
23 and we don't really want black houses in the hillsides. So
24 I wondered if there is a way to put some different
25
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1 boundaries or definitions around it to make it what we
2 want?
3 BESS WIERSEMA: With regard to color chips, I
4
just quickly took a pan of people are beige tones, green
s
tones, and gray tones. They look purple up here, but
6
they're (inaudible).
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I can't tell what the LRV
8
is.
9
BESS WIERSEMA: The ones with the Post -Its on it
10
are where you have to get to on a regular average color to
11
12 hit at an LRV 30.
13 COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: So anything that's lighter
14 than that is...
is BESS WIERSEMA: Anything that's to the right of
16 that would not qualify for the LRV. You have to get a
17 significantly dark home.
18 COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Just my observation in the
19 case of the blacks and the blues that's the case, I think
20
that's blue, or it's gray, but as you kind of moved over
21
they're not quite as dark, and that's the thing I was
22
looking for; that's very helpful to get an idea.
23
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner O'Donnell.
24
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1 I COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: That was very helpful.
I'm dust curious though, I find it hard to deal with this
3
on statutory basis or guideline basis, but we in the past
4
have had sort of a maximum. We said not above 30 under
5
certain conditions, whatever. Do you believe the use of a
6
maximum at all is helpful?
7
s BESS WIERSEMA: I think that it could be, unless
9 there is a neighborhood definition as part of that
to
character of the neighborhood. If you can prove that the
11 average LRV of a neighborhood is, say... I think we had it in
12 here. An average LRV of the neighborhood that you guys most
13 recently saw on Forrester was 17.4 for our immediate
14 neighborhood. Sorry, I have the wrong number. I think a
15 maximum number could be used, but I think 30 is too tight.
16 COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: The reason I ask you is
17 having sat here for a number of years, we don't take
18 responsibility for what happened before we got here, so the
14
fact that we might think what got there before we did was
20
something we don't agree with, I guess we'd like to kind of
21
move on and maybe not do it the same way.
zz
23 On the other hand, I hear what you're saying and
24 I think it makes sense, but we're going to have to wrestle
25
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1 with that. So we say there was some simplicity in what was
2 suggested before; that doesn't make it right.
3 But I do think if we had a shall not exceed or
4
some kind of number, it would be helpful. I heard you
5
earlier throw out 40%, but I don't like this thing that
6
says if they made a lot of mistakes in the past, we'll just
use that as our baseline, and that is what you're saying.
s
So let's talk about not that.
9
BESS WIERSEMA: Right.
10
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Do you have some other
11
12 help?
13 BESS WIERSEMA: If you could take your immediate
14 neighborhood and have an average LRV of what those homes
15 were in the neighborhood so that you could fit into them,
16 and you were within a certain percent of that, or whether
17 you want to call that average the current max, or a median
is number, I think that that's something that's worth looking
19 at. That way you don't end up with the black hole house in
20
the middle of the neighborhood that's all light tan an
21
taupe and white.
22
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: So your view of the
23
hillsides is we have different blotches up there because
24
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1 neighborhoods are different? Average each neighborhood and
2 you're going to get a different number.
3
BESS WIERSEMA: I think neighborhoods are
4
different, and I think architectural styles often call for
s
a different color palette as well.
6
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Thank you.
e VICE CHAIR BADAME: Any further questions?
Commissioner Erekson.
9
to
COMMISSIONER EREKSON: Should we think about the
11 roof reflective value different from the body of the house,
12 as opposed to looking at the total house and roof with a
13 single reflective value? Should we separate those two, and
14 what would the design implications be of doing that?
is BESS WIERSEMA: I think that's worth considering.
16 I also think it should be careful to not just use language
17 like on a metal roof that it needs to be an anodized metal
is roof. There are many metal roofs; in fact the ones that you
19
guys generally like better are not the ones that are
20
anodized, but that have a metallic undertone that are the
21
ones that have essentially the enamel process put on them.
22
23 It alarms me when I see specific language
24 assigned specific materials without having an understanding
25 of what those materials are that are current on the market
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1
for residential projects right now. So I think some
2
understanding of, yes, roofing could have a different LRV
3
quotient, so it's not a big reflective roof, then the
4
faVade of the house I think is a great way to look at it.
s
I also think materials are important. A super
6
smooth stucco is going to look very different than a
singled house, just because of shadow and texture that's
8
added, but we're required to give the LRV that's on the
9
color chip no matter what.
10
I think there are a lot of things that have to be
11
taken into consideration, and not just a flat number.
12
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you for your comments.
13
Any further questions? Thank you. Next up, Angelia Doerner.
14
is
ANGELIA DOERNER: Hello, I'm Angelia Doerner, a
16
very proud resident of the Almond Grove.
17
I'm here because this is maybe going to throw a
is
little wrench into something, or at least I think warrants
19
some consideration at this workshop, is page three of the
20
Staff Report referring specifically to Items 3-5, with
21
rooftop colors, metal surfaces, and mirror like window
22
tinting.
23
When I was here last time about Assembly Bill
24
2188 concerning new provisions about rooftop solar systems,
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1 I started thinking—and I can already hear some oh darns
over there—but I started thinking about how this applies to
3 our hillside homes and how you're going to be dealing with
4
allowing or approving or determining whether some of these
s
rooftop solar systems could be causing significant issues
6
or contradictions with what we have in our Hillside
7
Standards.
8
9 Specifically what I think could be considered is
10 that cited in Section 3, paragraph 65850.5(b) in Assembly
11 Bill 2188. They do give the authority to the Town to
12 address or apply for a use permit if they can prove that
13 there's a specific adverse impact upon the public health
14 and safety of the Town, and what I'm concerned about is
15 rooftop systems.
16 You guys do a great job, you put up this
17 wonderful color that merges with the hillside and the
18
environment. Someone puts up a solar system that provides a
19
glare directly down Highway 17 with the brightest sun and
20
blinding drivers. There's always discussion here about the
21
lights and the windows and how that's going to be shining
zz
23 at night and be visible. what about visibility during the
24 day with solar systems all over the roofs?
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I I'm just throwing this out as something that I
2 think could be considered, or should be at least thought
3 about, and using that particular reference in the bill to
a
see if there's some way around the building permit process
5
that you can take a harder look from these same viewing
6
platforms and the same other things that you're talking
about now to make sure that those kinds of public safety
e
issues aren't encountered.
9
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Do we have any questions for
to
Ms. Doerner? Seeing none, thank you for your comments. I
11
12 will now call Mr. Harris to the podium.
13 SANDY HARRIS: My name is Sandy Harris and I'm
19 here in regard to the home on Drysdale. I know we have a
15 color code associated with the hillsides, which I agree
16 with completely, because when you look at the hillside and
17 you have street signs up there where people painted their
18 houses white and very reflective colors, I think it brings
19 down the integrity of our hillsides.
20
But what I'm not sure of is that same application
21
applied to houses that aren't visible, they're down low
22
enough where nobody can actually see them. It appears as
23
though that same regulation, because of that purpose, is
24
being implemented on houses that can never be seen by
25
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1-�NI
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1 anybody other than the people who live on the specific
2 street that they're one, or it's on a street that nobody
3 would evero to unless
9 you did live there type thing, and
4
it's not a thoroughfare to go anywhere.
5
But I just want to see if there is possible
6
consideration that could be given for houses in that regard
e as far as trying to hold them to the wire on the 30 LRV. I
9 know why that was implemented to start with, which is
to agreeable and I think I'm very, very happy they did that,
11 because if they had put that into effect many years ago we
12 wouldn't be looking at all those bright houses up on the
13 hillside. But if there is possible consideration that could
14 be given for houses that are visible only to the people who
15 live on the street that they're on, I would appreciate some
16 sort of consideration like that, if it's possible that you
17 guys would think about that.
1&
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Anything further? You still
is
have time left. Commissioner Erekson has a question for
20
you.
21
COMMISSIONER EREKSON: Trying to understand what
22
23 you're proposina to us. Are you proposing a Town -wide
24 standard of a certain maximum reflective value, or for all
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Ehe homes whether they're visible or not visible in the
hillsides?
SANDY HARRIS: No, all the homes that are visible
in the hillside shouldn't be reflected. They shouldn't be
something that you have to look at that house all the time,
because you can't help it, it's reflecting back at you and
demonstrating to you that it's there.
But I'm suggesting if you have a house that is
not visible from anywhere, and it's not up in the
hillsides, and the only way someone is ever going to see it
is if they drive up your street to go to your home or go to
your neighbor's home, because it's not a thoroughfare going
anywhere, I'm just wondering if there's consideration that
can be given for that situation.
I know what the guideline was put in place for,
because of all the street signs we have all over the
mountains with people painting the houses colors that
weren't nature's true colors. And I'm not saying someone is
going to paint a house pink or white or whatever, but I'm
just saying that 30 is hard to find a color that really
fits some designs and architecture of houses. And if it's
not in an area where it's not visible and nobody can see
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I it, I'm asking if there's a possibly there could be
2 consideration given to that specific type of a case.
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VICE CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Kane.
a
COMMISSIONER KANE: Mr. Harris, you and I go way
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SANDY HARRIS: Yes, sir.
s COMMISSIONER KANE: So I'm going to take little
9 liberty. What I'm hearing is if a tree falls in the forest
10 and no one is there, will it make any noise? If I'm going
11 up in the hillsides, why would I want a pink and blue and
12 orange house? You just said well I'm sure nobody would want
13 to paint it that way, but if we lower the standard we get a
14 pink and blue and orange house, possibly. Why wouldn't I
15 want to have the hillsides continually rustic and
16 respectful of everything the Hillside Guidelines provide?
17 It's not a rhetorical question, it's like really, why would
36 I want that?
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SANDY HARRIS: Okay, you asked me a question. If
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I would take you around the various areas that are
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COMMISSIONER KANE: And you have.
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24 SANDY HARRIS: Yes. There are lots of areas in
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take a look at unless you know someone there and you're
going to their specific house, and those houses, most of
them are fairly consistent with each other color -wise.
There's this new standard put in to where it has to be 30
or below, which the house, I don't know if you've seen many
30 or belows, but there are not a lot of colors you can
really pick in that arena and have a house that's conducive
to certain architecture styles or whatever, because it's so
dark. I can understand having some regulation in place that
affects our community, because that's what we're about is
our community, but not isolating someone that it doesn't
affect anybody else other than the people who live on the
street and the people, if they are happy with the color,
and nobody else can see it, and it's not a major
thoroughfare of any kind where you can't go anywhere other
than to those people's houses, I'm just saying it would be
nice if there was some sort of an exception for that
specific case.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Anything further,
(Commissioner Kane?
COMMISSIONER KANE: No, thank you.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you. I will now call
Dennis Razzari to the podium.
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DENNIS RAZZARI: Madam Chair, Members of the
Commission, I'm Dennis Razzari, Davidon Homes.
I wanted to touch briefly on the tree issue as
well, as I may be able to add some insight for you, if time
allows or you want to bring me back, regarding the color
average, because that's what we did do also up at the
Highlands project and maybe why this item is before you
again tonight.
But with regard to the trees, the Hillside
Development Standards and Guidelines were adopted in
January 2004. For almost 12 years now they've served pretty
effectively for the Town, and recently with our project it
seems like a lot of attention has been drawn to them. It's
been drawn to them because of some of the ambiguity of some
of the language.
However, what Dr. Weissman has recommended this
evening as far as revising the language for them I think
further introduces more ambiguity into how those guidelines
are interpreted. I think Staff has done a phenomenal job
with the addition of the language.
As Mr. Abbs indicated also, the visibility from
the viewing platforms at the distances that are involved,
and the use of a 500mm lens and a 300mm lens is more than
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adequate in determining how visible those homes are, or the
product is. To take it to a vantage point introduces
ambiguity as to where is the vantage point? We've had
enough discussion and argument over the viewing platforms,
let alone now determining where the vantage points are from
which you're going to view this project.
Davidon has spent literally tens of thousands of
dollars on the four homes that we recently had before you,
and for a private party on a single-family to come in and
do that and then we challenged as to that's not the correct
vantage point, that's not the correct viewing platform, and
to move it around, it's a very tedious and onerous task,
and an expensive task, for a private party to endure.
So I would caution you on that, because I think
you need to welcome your applicants into the Town, not just
developers. Maybe not developers at all, if you choose, but
your owners that are building custom homes or homes in the
hillside, you want to be able to work with them and have a
language and statute that is interpreted, clear, defined,
and I think that that was the intent of what this study
session was to do, to get language that is not ambiguous.
To take trees and evaluate them as to whether
their health is good, poor or great is an interpretation
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that should be left to the consulting arborist. To then
take that tree and say it's only worth 60% value because of
its character I think adds more ambiguity into it. To take
a calculation around it where for 12 years it sufficed at
258, and now introduce an average where 258 is now going to
be brought down to 24.58, is again, a change that is not
necessary. It has worked, and with the clarity that Staff
has recommended, I think it works very well. I think what
Staff has recommended is appropriate language to be
adopted. Thank you.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you. Questions?
Commissioner Kane.
COMMISSIONER KANE: For you and Mr. Abbs, I was
there when we developed this language; at least I think I
was. I remember the sixties, so I can remember that.
I had an issue with the priority of foliage, that
there was a primary set of standards for houses in the
hills, as secondary and then tertiary considerations. I
don't know if the Commission or even the Town Council at
that time agreed or supported the notion that I had that a
tree could be a fleeting thing, bushes, foliage could be a
fleeting thing, and that it was an amelioration, a tertiary
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consideration to bring in trees as really permanently
affecting the 24.5-25%.
I was thinking when you spoke earlier, Mr. Abbs,
the question is—I have to ask you questions—do you know if
there's a law requiring a homeowner to put up a giant oak
tree that just fell down due to natural causes, which oak
tree blocked 50% of the house? Now what do we do? So that's
how I assigned a tertiary consideration to trees when
talking about visibility. I've been here for 30 -something
years, and it doesn't look like it used to look. Maybe the
trees all fell down and we need language saying you have to
put up an exact replica, which wouldn't be very practical.
But that's a question.
When you give emphasis to foliage having to do
with visibility, that's in the hands of God, that's
temporarily. It could be overnight; it could be 50 years.
But what if it all falls down and I can see the white house
with a 50 LRV from 20 miles away.
DENNIS RAZZARI: I don't know that there is any
law within the Town's statutes that requires a tree to be
replaced. I can tell you that in the brief period of time
that Davidon has owned the Highlands property, we have seen
a number of rated healthy trees, both within the LRV areas
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and outside of the LRV areas, that have fallen completely.
Some due to windstorms and storms, but some that have just
plain keeled over and dropped. We've had sudden limb drop
off of a number of trees that are in healthy vigor.
Mr. Abbs indicated earlier that the Commission
should consider the opportunity or allowance of the
planting of oak trees, native trees, within the area. The
Highlands in particular I think has been rated as a second
growth, or a later growth, forest, and so the trees up
there may not be in the best of health. I don't know if
harvesting is the correct word for it, but they are
secondary growth trees and as a result they don't have the
vigor and strength of the original tree. If we're able to
supplement that forest, that oak woodland forest, by
planting box trees, and significantly sized box trees is
what we would suggest, you can augment the screen of the
house and you're introducing healthy species and varieties
back into the oak woodland forest that are not second or
later generation growths, that add vigor and health to the
forest in general, and can supplement the screen.
COMMISSIONER KANE: A brief follow up, but not to
belabor the point. I said what if? What if that massive oak
tree comes down at the hand of God, lighting, storm,
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whatever, and I've just paid triple the money for this
wonderful house on the hillside, and suddenly I can see San
Francisco. What's going to motivate me putting up... You get
my point: This is how I'd put foliage in a tertiary light
when it comes to protecting the hillsides and reducing
visibility. I can't depend on a "temporary tree" that a
homeowner is just not going to lose sleep over replacing if
it falls down and then they have one of the greatest views
known to man.
DENNIS RAZZARI: I think currently the Town does
have policy that if a tree falls, and this has occurred on
our site where a tree has fallen, a Tree Removal Permit is
still required, and in cases where it has happened a Tree
Removal Permit is required with tree mitigation that is
applied to that.
To address your concern, I think the trees that
we're proposing to be used as screening can potentially
have some type of deed restriction or something on that lot
where if there is a tree that falls that the homeowner does
have someone on title that that tree does have to be
replaced. So there is a potential legal option that can be
implemented, but currently if a tree does fall, a Tree
Removal Permit is required, and mitigation is required.
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COMMISSIONER KANE: Let's go to Staff and find
lout from Staff.
JOEL PAULSON: Correct.
COMMISSIONER KANE: What is?
JOEL PAULSON: That if a tree falls, a Tree
Removal Permit is required, and mitigation replacement is
required.
COMMISSIONER KANE: I did not know that. Even on
a homeowner who has been there a while?
JOEL PAULSON: On any property.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Is it a replica tree, or a
certain box tree, or a tree that will eventually develop
into the tree that fell down?
JOEL PAULSON: It's a number of box trees based
on the table in the Tree Ordinance, so depending on the
canopy size of the tree before it fell.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Thank you.
ROBERT SCHULTZ: On top of that, it is certainly
possible to put in, through a deed restriction, Conditions
of Approval that require the maintenance of landscaping or
screening; I've seen those done also.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Do we regularly do that?
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ROBERT SCHULTZ: No, I don't think we have up to
this point.
JOEL PAULSON: I would just offer that prior to
when I arrived the Town used to do five-year tree
maintenance agreements with property owners.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Any further questions?
Commissioner Talesfore.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Prior to when you
arrived the Town did what, and can you explain what that
means?
JOEL PAULSON: Tree maintenance agreement, so
whatever they planted or was part of the approval, they had
to make sure that it survived for five years.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: And the Town took it
out?
JOEL PAULSON: I can't recall whether or not that
went into the Tree Ordinance revisions as well. I'll try to
pull that up. I'm not sure if we have the new copy in here,
but I remember that conversation. I think Dr. Weissman
brought that up when we were having that conversation.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: And the Town checks on
that? They send somebody out there for five years?
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COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: I don't know how it was
implemented when it was done prior to 2000.
ROBERT SCHULTZ: Certainly know that if that's
something the Planning Commission wants to pursue, that's a
possibility, and then we have to figure out how to make
certain. Maybe there's a report that's done by the property
owner yearly that shows how it's been maintained, but we
wouldn't have the staff to start going out to all these
homes.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Which is why I asked. I
mean it sounds great in concept.
ROBERT SCHULTZ: You try to put the onus on them.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Onus on them, right, and
that is sort of the issue here too. Anyway, to the point,
that is why I asked the question. Thanks.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Mr. Abbs, and
thank you, Mr. Razzari. I will now call Lee Quintana to the
podium.
LEE QUINTANA: Lee Quintana, and I apologize for
being late. I'd like to talk about several things tonight,
and they're just recommendations or suggestions for things
to think about. I'm probably going to go through them fast,
then come back to them when I have time.
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One is from the glossary. Delete the definition
for "visible home" from the glossary. Most people already
know or have an understanding of what visible means, and
just put in the body of the text what is intended.
Also, delete "viewing platforms" from the
glossary and the text and substitute "vantage points"
rather than "viewing platforms," because the language in
the document refers to vantage points, including those on
the valley floor, not just those on the valley floor.
Platform gives it a different impression.
I'd also like to talk about the origin of the 25%
and the reason behind it. There were approximately, that I
have counted and seen, five drafts, and I believe there are
a couple of more drafts, of this document before it was
actually adopted. It was not until the last draft that the
25% criteria were added to the glossary. The very first
draft had a definition of visibility as something that can
be seen, which is the definition of visibility. We didn't
redefine visibility until the very last draft, and it's not
clear why that particular thing was picked, why 25% of
visible elevation was picked, or how and why or whether
alternate methods were considered.
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I think there are alternate methods that can be
considered. One will be to decrease the percent of visible
elevation allowed as the useable or potentially usable
square footage of a home increases. That would include
spaces that are not currently proposed for usable space,
such as cellars, basements, and attics or places that are
covered by roofs, but that could be potentially converted
into useable space without changing the effect of the bulk
of the home.
Another way would be to consider the percent of
the total of the ridgeline as criteria for a cut-off, or
the percent of the roofline elevation that is visible from
a particular elevation. And of course there are other
possibilities.
Lastly, I would really like to see some
clarification or clarity of the language that is adopted
that is clear that even if a project meets the criteria for
visibility...
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Ms. Quintana. Any
questions? Commissioner Talesfore.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Thank you. You referred
to 25% after at least five drafts. Five drafts of what?
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LEE QUINTANA: Of the Hillside Development
Standards and Guidelines.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Are you talking about
the one we have presently?
LEE QUINTANA: No, I'm talking about the first
one that was presented to the Committee, which was I
believe December 19, 2001.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Are you talking about
the Hillside Design Guidelines in 2001?
LEE QUINTANA: Yeah, the Guidelines.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Okay. I wanted some
context.
LEE QUINTANA: Yeah, until it was finally adopted
in January of 2004, there were at least five drafts. I'm
pretty sure there were six drafts and there might have been
even more.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Were you on that
committee?
LEE QUINTANA: Yes, I was.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Okay.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Talesfore, do
you have further? Commissioner Hanssen.
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COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Thank you for your
comments. I wanted to ask about one of your comments, which
is regarding the viewing platforms. In reading through the
document that you and Dr. Weissman submitted, and also
hearing your comments, I thought there was some suggestion
in there—and if I missed it or didn't interpret it
correctly, let me know—that we should not limit ourselves
just to the viewing platforms, or even the additional
viewing platforms that might be selected by the Community
Development Director, and maybe choose places that are in
the hillside, is that correct? And then I had a follow up
question.
LEE QUINTANA: I think that "vantage points" is
the broader term, and then "viewing platforms" was used and
primarily interpreted to be on the valley floor. So I think
that makes it confusing. You're really talking about where
can you see it.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: The other thing that you
mentioned in just your recent comments was that the
guidelines referred to vantage points and not viewing
platforms, but I don't know if I'm missing the place that
it is, but I'm looking at page 13 where the viewing
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platforms are defined in the original document, and it says
viewing platform versus vantage point.
COMMITTEE MEMBER QUINTANA: But if you look on
one of the pages that I just gave you, and I do apologize
for getting it in so late. I was hoping to get it in
earlier this morning, but had personal things that I needed
to take care of. If you look in there, there is a list of
places within the document where visibility is referred to
in the Goals, in the Objectives, in several other parts of
the document that set up what you want to accomplish by the
hillside documents, and they don't distinguish between just
the valley floor and the hillsides.
Now, I don't know that it would be a good idea to
have different criteria for those two different things, but
I don't think one excludes the other; you could be visible
from several different points of view.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Was there any version of
the original document that suggested alternate viewing
locations for determining visibility?
COMMITTEE MEMBER QUINTANA: I don't remember when
that came in. I think it was from the very beginning, but
the definition in the glossary says "established viewing
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platforms," which is different, so the emphasis was on
that.
The other thing is that the timing of the
analysis is really important, and as the document is
currently approved the analysis for visual comes after
you've determined what the LRDA is, even though that is one
of the things that are supposed to be considered in
determining the LRDA, and the timing of it comes so far
down the road that it's just before a hearing that it
actually comes up. I think in the original draft, if I
remember correctly what I was reading this morning, that
was not the case. It was actually in the document as part
of the initial analysis to determine the LRDA where a house
might be able to be sited.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Okay, thank you.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Erekson.
COMMISSIONER EREKSON: I'm intrigued by the
alternate methods, but I didn't hear you make an argument
against the percent of visible elevation other than it
occurred late, and I presume you're not making the argument
that just because an idea came up late, it's bad, it's not
as good as an idea that came up early. I'd like for you tc
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help me understand why that's not a good idea and why we
should consider alternatives.
COMMITTEE MEMBER QUINTANA: The way that it is
currently stated favors bigger houses, and at least my
understanding while I was on the committee that helped
draft this was that we were trying to limit the impact of
houses in the hillside, and effective bulk or mass or what
you see was one of the impacts that was created.
In fact, at that time we were told that there
would be a comprehensive review of the document after a
year of its implementation to see if it was actually
accomplishing what we had intended it to, and that review
has never taken place, and over the years -this is my
personal opinion -the technical meeting of the law has been
what has propelled the approval of an application, and that
sort of... If you'll let me finish what I was going to say at
the very end about clarifying, in part it will answer your
question.
COMMISSIONER EREKSON: I suppose if it was
answering my question, you wouldn't have to get permission.
COMMITTEE MEMBER QUINTANA: Okay. What I was
saying was that whether or not a project meets the criteria
for visual analysis, meeting it does not mean that the
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,d3
1 (project must be approved. There's a lot of discretion.
2 (Anything that comes to you guys and the Town Council is a
3 discretionary action, and there are many more factors that
4
are involved, so just meeting the technical criteria, even
s
if you're meeting the technical criteria of the law of
6
different aspects, does not mean that the project itself is
8 meeting the intent, the goals, and the objectives of the
9 General Plan and the Hillside Design Guidelines.
10
Just to give an example, if you have a house that
11 reaches the maximum height allowed, but it only does it for
12 10' at the ridgeline, that's quite different than a house
13 that has a ridgeline that is 50-100' long and all of the
14 Iridges of the house are visible. So that would be one
1s (example of what I'm talking about.
16 I COMMISSIONER EREKSON: Thank you.
17 I VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Ms. Quintana. I
is will now close the public portion of the study session. I
19
was originally going to separate the discussion among
20
Commissioners between color averaging and the visibility
21
analysis, but we have time constraints and we also have two
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Commissioners leaving early tonight, one at 5:30 and one at
23
24 5:45, and we also have the Town Arborist present tonight,
25 (which I think we'd like to take advantage of, so I'm going
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1 to leave it open target for Commissioners for open
2 discussion and not separate it out. So, would anybody like
3 to start the conversation? commissioner O'Donnell.
4 COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I just want to ask you,
5
do you have a proposal for the arborist to talk to us now?
6
If so, it would be a good time.
JOEL PAULSON: I think that the arborist is here
e
to answer questions.
9
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Okay, not to give a
10
11 presentation?
JOEL PAULSON: Correct.
12
13 COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: All right, thank you.
14 VICE CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Hanssen had her
is hand up next.
16 COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I think since the Town
17 Arborist is here, I agree that it makes sense to ask our
1s questions so she doesn't have to wait till the very end.
19 I was troubled in reading this whole thing about
20
this idea of the moving target state of tree health, and it
21
might be that the answer is that you can only look at it in
zz
one point in time when you're trying to make a decision on
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a development proposal, but I wanted to get an idea,
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Iespecially in the case of these recent proposals that we've
seen.
There are a fair amount of trees up in the
hillsides, up there in Davidon Homes developments, that are
in fair or worse condition, so if you're asked to look at
the tree more than one time, how often is it that you'll
see a change in the tree state if not caused by mechanical
failure, just by what's happening in the environment, how
often would you see that like in a year?
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Ms. Ellis, for
stepping up to the podium. I was going to ask you to do
that, so thank you for doing so.
DEBORAH ELLIS: How often would I see something
within a period of a year?
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Or maybe I'm not using the
right benchmark, but do you see where I'm going with the
question? It's clear to me if someone takes construction
equipment and doesn't have the proper protection around the
tree and they hurt the tree, that could immediately cause
damage to the tree, but I have this thought like if you go
make your analysis—and you do a great job with your
analysis, by the way—of the state that it is at the time,
would it be typical to see a change in a year or two or
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I three of those trees without any mechanical or otherwise
2 impacts?
3 1 DEBORAH ELLIS: The answer is it depends on a lot
4
of things, and so I can't give you one particular answer.
s
It would depend on the particular tree and the conditions
6
that are going on around it, including things like weather
and drought.
B
The only thing I can say is if I am asked to
9
review an arborist's report that's, say, five years old,
10
even one of mine, I would feel that it's not current enough
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12 and i would want to go back and evaluate the trees again.
13 Then you might ask me what if it's a year old,
14 would you still want to do that? My answer would be it
15 depends. If it's a fairly stable site, nothing's going on,
1E we haven't had extreme weather conditions, and I had a good
17 report that I was fairly comfortable, I might say I think
18 that probably things are about the same. I could never
19 guarantee it; something could happen and I wouldn't know it
20
unless I went out there. i do wrestle with this myself
zl
sometimes, and unfortunately there's no one answer.
22
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I can clearly see that,
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and I can imagine with conditions like with the drought
24
having been relatively recent, that may have had an impact,
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and if you're asked today versus a year ago, would you
still want to go see that same thing from a year ago? Maybe
you would now, because of the drought having that impact.
DEBORAH ELLIS: Yes, if the drought has had a
huge impact. The Highlands is a good example, not just
because of the construction, but it's a relatively exposed
site, and many of the trees were quite beat up before the
Highlands development began, and so I have seen rapid
changes in trees, and some of that may be due to the
development. I think some of that probably would have
happened, even without development. I think some of that
probably would have happened maybe without development just
given the condition of the trees beforehand; they were not
strong trees to begin with.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Talesfore.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Thank you. I was going
to ask a question about what changes have you seen because
of the drought within our trees in the hillsides, so thank
you for that.
I'm seeing these words, "sparse canopies," and I
want to understand the sparse canopies that you've seen,
let's lust say, since you brought it up, up in that area
that we're talking about. How do you view that? Will they
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get sparser? Are those the trees that are fair to poor?
Will they be in good condition, but always having a sparse
canopy because that's their character? When we see words
like that, I'm always confused about how to interpret them.
DEBORAH ELLIS: Canopy density is one way to
evaluate a tree's vigor, it's probably the most convenient,
easiest way, and canopy density will vary somewhat
depending on a particular tree species and also its age.
Even with no human intervention, as a tree ages generally
its canopy density will become less. It's kind of like
people and their hair. I used to have to thin my hair,
because it was so thick, to try to reduce the density, and
I don't have to do that anymore, and that's the way it is
with a lot of trees. But a reduction in density that's not
due to normal aging and that is because of environmental
excesses or deficiencies, or some sort of a disease
process, will reduce canopy density.
I'm pretty familiar with the tree species around
here, so I'm very, very used to looking at them, and I can
tell an 80 from a 40 right away, because I'm just so used
to doing it and I've done it so many times, and so I often
use that as a way to describe what I think is wrong with
the tree, or what symptoms it's showing that are telling us
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I that this tree does not haveood vigor
g 4 anymore and is
2 possibly declining.
3
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Thank you. I'm glad to
4
hear that, because I may have interpreted this totally
5
differently, like it was that species of a tree or the
6
canopy would come back later, so thank you.
7
8 DEBORAH ELLIS: I'm really glad you told me that,
9 because this tells me that something in my reports is not
la clear to people, and so I will have to define that.
11 COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Thank you. One other
12 question?
13 1 VICE CHAIR BADAME: Go ahead.
14 COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: It's about fair and
15 poor. We see that often. We see a lot of descriptions for
16 trees, but when we see fair -to -poor, and that's how you
17 describe it, which I'm sure it is do
you ever see those
18 trees coming back if they were cared for? Do you know what
19
I'm saying, on a piece of property?
20
DEBORAH ELLIS: Yes, it's possible.
21
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: It doesn't mean this is
22
it, take it out, because it's fair -to -poor?
23
24 DEBORAH ELLIS: Correct.
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1 COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: And then I think we saw
2 one, or maybe I'm wrong on this, that was described as
3 good -fair.
4 DEBORAH ELLIS: The way I read trees is there are
5
the super categories of good, fair, and poor.
6
So good is pretty darned good, and on a grading
scale that's like a B on an A to F scale. It's not
B
excellent, it's not A, but it's pretty darned good and
9
worth keeping if you can. Fair is so-so. It's not a great
10
tree; it's not a terrible tree. Poor, it's a bad tree.
11
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: You mean declining?
12
13 DEBORAH ELLIS: It depends. That's why I always
14 give a structure rating as well as a vigor rating, because
15 I want to know what am I seeing that is a problem with this
16 tree here? Is it something with the structure or it's
17 vigor, or both? So I will give you both of those ratings.
is COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Thank you very much.
19 VICE CHAIR BADAME: I'd like to jump in real
20
quick. would you like to comment on tree canopy and density
21
being seasonal? We may be looking at that as part of our
22
proposed methodology.
23
DEBORAH ELLIS: Deciduous trees drop their
24
leaves, usually in the wintertime—there are a couple of
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species that drop them in the summer, like buckeyes—and so
those trees will provide less screening during the time
period that they're normally deciduous.
And then there are some trees, blue oak is a very
good example and there are a lot of them at Highlands,
these are deciduous tree species, but they have the special
ability, a little bit above regular trees, to drop their
leaves early in response to drought, and they will do that
as a survival mechanism. So they can oftentimes look pretty
bad, but what they're doing is actually beneficial for
them. If they have enough stored energy to put out a new
crop of leaves this year they may have saved themselves a
little bit of stress, because they're not trying to pull up
water that's not there and wasting energy on that.
Highlands is a good example where there are some
areas that there are a lot of blue oaks and they look bad,
but I think there is a possibility that if we start to get
normal rains those trees may increase their canopy density
quite a bit.
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Hanssen.
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VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you. Commissioner
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I wanted to ask another
question about the sparse canopy. I know you have a great
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1 sense for where a tree stands in terms of its canopy
2 coverage, but my question is, is there like an industry
3 standard that is used in general for this, or is it more a
4
product of experience that you have in doing this? I dust
5
didn't know.
6
DEBORAH ELLIS: I do basically go based upon my
own experience, but there are some guidelines that are used
e
mainly for forestry in estimating canopy density, and these
9
are like a little chart that you will see where it's like a
10
circle that's filled in completely black; that's 100%
11
12 density. Then they'll start punching little white holes in
13 it, and they have a series where they'll say this is 100%,
14 here's 80%, here's 60%, here's 409k. Mainly in forestry they
15 use that type of a chart to try to be more objective,
16 particularly between different observers.
17 COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I ask because I think one
18 of the suggestions that has been made by the public is to
19 incorporate the idea of sparse canopies into whether it's
20
included in a viewing, and so I just wanted to know what
21
went behind it.
22
So you're saying yes, there is a standard out
23
there for forestry, and although you haven't, because of
24
all your experience ana you're not doing forestry per se,
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1 but if you wanted to rely on that you could use something
2 like that?
3
DEBORAH ELLIS: Sure, and I would be happy to
4
look that up and send it to you, if you like.
s
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you. Any further
6
questions for the Town Arborist? Thank you, Ms. Ellis.
7
e I will look to the Commissioners to see if they
9 have any comments on the color averaging. Commissioner
O'Donnell.
10
11 COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I'm the one that's going
12 to leave at 5:30, so before I do leave I did want to throw
13 out a couple of thoughts.
14 I think what we're hearing today is very helpful.
15 I also think the complexity of what we're hearing today
16 makes it very difficult to adequately draft something that
17 will apply in all circumstances.
18 Starting with that, I think the Staff has done a
19
good job, and the beauty of what the Staff has done I think
20
is to take something that has worked. we can criticize from
21
time to time, but it has worked. What Staff is proposing is
22
more than fine-tuning, but it's less than totally redoing.
23
za I tend towards that, because there's nothing to prevent us
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from continuing hopefully to make changes as necessary. So
I just start with that thought.
Secondly, when I look at the specific proposals
that they have and that are set forth in their report of
October 21'`, I just want to make a couple of comments.
On page 2 we talk about the installation of story
poles and all that kind of thing, and we get into two areas
at least which are fairly complex, one of which is viewing
platforms versus vantage points. As far as I'm concerned,
the viewing platforms have not been perfect; we know that,
we've seen examples of it. On the other hand, I wouldn't
want to throw that out.
What is being proposed here is that other
locations as deemed appropriate by the Community
Development Director could be used, which I think makes it
a little bit easier to use this, because we are trying to
preserve our views and the trees and all that. On the other
hand, we're not passing a law that says there will be no
further building in hills. If we are, then it makes
everything much simpler, nobody has to waist a bunch of
money trying to come in.
So if the Community Development Director has this
leeway, then I think we get around some of the problems
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_d5
I Ithat were recently addressed to us, such as the Chevron
2 Istation blocking things, so I kind of like that suggestion.
3 I As far as the reflectivity, that's really
4
5
6
7
troublesome to me. On page 2, we use a visible home as
defined as 24.5%. On page 3, we talk about, "Exterior
colors shall not exceed a reflectivity value of 30." I
8 think the suggestion on the bottom of page 3, that the
9 averaging be allowed except to the extent the home is more
io than 25% visible perhaps is an improvement. I don't like
11 the fact that you look at individual neighborhoods in the
12 foothills and tailor it by group of housing, group of
13 housing, because that doesn't help the general view.
14 I I think hopefully the averaging will help a lot.
15 II do think there is some reason to believe that maybe
16 laveraging will not solve that 30% issue, but it may be
17 improved by averaging. I don't know what you come up with
is rather than 30$, because in many cases that 30% is fine, in
19
some cases, maybe not. I don't know how to deal with that
20
however, and so I'm just going to leave it with saying if
21
the Staff has any thoughts on how we deal with specific
22
23 types of housing, we heard about that -type, styles, that
24 kind of thing -that the reflectivity value of 30% is really
25 funfair to the design and the 30% does not benefit the
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I viewing that much, we might want to consider some other
2 language to deal with that. But for the moment I'd rather
3 be conservative and stay with the 30%, but use the average.
4 As far as the solar goes, because that was I
5
thought a good point we should address, I would really
6
address a question to the Town Attorney.
If I understand the speaker, the speaker said we
e
would have the right under certain circumstances to require
9
a use permit, but the standards I heard her asserting of
to
health and safety didn't seem to help me very much when it
11
12 comes to aesthetics. So my question simply is if we assume
13 for the moment that it is restricted to health and safety,
14 which is not very helpful, unless... One example she used is
is blinding drivers as they come down the street, which has
16 got to be a little rare. How much leeway, if at all, do we
17 have if the legislature is saying gee whiz, we love solar?
is What ability do we have to say solar is fine, but let's
19 keep it so it isn't very reflective? That's the question.
20
ROBERT SCHULTZ: None.
21
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: None?
22
ROBERT SCHULTZ: None. But we will soon. The
23
Planning Commission, really, I can't think of one in the
24
two years, and I asked Joel, as part of a residential
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project, they don't put the solar on there; after the fact
is when the solar comes in.
We are developing a policy in-house to try to
make certain we capture those ones that come forward for
the solar that have to be processed within three days over
the counter in some (inaudible), that the ones that are in
the Historical District and the ones that will in the
hillside, we'll put an extra eye on them to make certain
there isn't something that we can do. We can recommend
changes that don't increase the cost by more than $1,000
under it. From an internal standpoint, we're going to try
to come up with a policy that we try to catch those and we
try to look at them from the hillside if they're going to
be visible, and see if we can't make changes and get the
applicant to understand the importance of the reflection.
Maybe we'll find it. I'm sure there are ones on
the hillside right now that have solar that might be
visually unappealing, but I don't believe any of them are
going to be blinding from a health and safety issue. I
don't see that as a tool that we can use to go through the
use permit.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: That's kind of what I
thought, and I appreciate that, but I also assume that
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Staff, even if a person came in with the whole package,
i.e. the house, and said we're going to have solar,
notwithstanding the limitations of your ability, it doesn't
prevent you from saying that's pretty darned visible, can
you do something? Because I find a lot of our applicants
are pretty responsible, reasonable people. So we may not be
able to say you must do it, but we could say here's how
other people have done it, it would be much better for you,
your neighbors, and the community.
So those are my only comments.
ROBERT SCHULTZ: We've actually had a few in the
hillside where they're not on the homes, they're actually
on the ground, so we've had those, and as long as those are
setbacks, then those can meet the requirements also and
then we wouldn't have that issue. Like you said, most
applicants are very reasonable to try to come up with a
different solution. If it's not going to be more than
$1,000 cost, then we can recommend it and require it.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Thank you.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Kane.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Commissioner O'Donnell, you
shouldn't be so shy. It sounded like a motion to me. At
least it works for me. But since it's not a motion, before
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it becomes a motion I'd like to discuss your view on the
average 30%, because somewhere I read there was a concern
about the average 30% insofar as most of the trim being
flat black and the roof being flaming orange and it
averaged out to 30%. If we want to consider some
flexibility on that, we should have a sine-que-non maximum,
an average of 30%, but at no point shall any material
exceed 35%.
The average concerns me. The point was made it
could be 5, 5, 5 and 60, and so that comes out to now we're
back to averages again, getting ourselves in trouble.
Flexibility could have limits, but nothing anywhere to
exceed 35%. Maybe we're again going to shoot ourselves in
the foot, but if we desire the flexibility on the 30% and
the word "average," then we should have a max as well.
Tom, I think the rest of what you did is a basis
for a motion.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Let me say two things.
One, I agree with what you just said about you
don't want to average if something is 100% and something is
5%. You can get carried away with that, so I would agree
that that should be addressed.
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Secondly, however, this is a study session, and
ny understanding of the session is we really ought to just
talk it out and receive all the input, take it home, and
perhaps ask Staff, as I already have, and you implicitly
are asking Staff, to make some more suggestions to us, and
then when I comes before us at a regular meeting, we'll
feel... We were asked to do this before and we felt not
prepared. My understanding is this meeting is to help us be
prepared, not to make motions.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Kane.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Okay, my bad. However,
everything he said should be written down.
The other consideration was brought up by
speakers and some of the text that we have where we talk
about the 24.5%. Again, we're getting ourselves into
trouble with averages, because I made the note that Bobby
could put up a but that's 100% visible, and no, he can't do
that, and somebody could put up a Cow Palace and only 24%
of it was visible. So if Staff could come up with a
brilliant way of also having a cap similar to the cap on
the LRVs, a cap on mass or visibility, guidance language
that cannot be hacked and hewed over time and turn out to
be nothing but watered down sentiment. Stay with the 24.5%
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I if that's what we want, and but in no case shall more than
2 14 square foot of bright orange be seen. I don't have the
3 language myself, but I know where percentages can get us in
4
trouble, and we have some very large homes at 24.999999%,
5
coincidentally, and they can been seen from Milpitas. So
6
that's my concern with percentages.
7
e VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Commissioner Kane.
9 Commissioner Hanssen, did you have your hand up? Okay, go
ahead.
10
11 COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I looked through this and
12 I made a bunch of comments, and I wanted to just share some
13 of the things that I thought maybe needed to be addressed.
14 First of all, I went back and reviewed the
15 existing Hillside Development Standards and Guidelines in
16 relationship to these two sections, and compared to what we
17 have now, what's proposed right now is infinitely less
18 restrictive, and I wondered how we were getting by with the
19
maximum reflectivity value of 30 on all components of the
20
house, because that's what the language says now, and if we
21
actually have houses that are out of compliance, or maybe
22
this is relative to new houses. That would one comment I
23
had.
24
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1 The second comment I had is relative to the
2 calculation the proposed language talks about using the
3 color averaging with the exception of any houses that are
4 more than 25% visible. So what happens to the houses that
s
are more than 25% visible? Do they default to the old
6
standard of nothing more than 30%? That was another
question I had, and maybe I should just throw out all the
e
questions before you answer each one of them, or do you
9
want to answer them after?
10
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Can I interrupt real quickly?
11
12 It depends upon how many you have, because I know
13 Commissioner O'Donnell has to leave at 5:30.
14 COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: But that's okay, because
15 I intend to catch up on what I'm going to miss.
16 COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Do you want me to stop so
17 he can ask?
is VICE CHAIR BADAME: No, I was giving him an
19 opportunity to bow out right now, but he's not, so go
20
ahead.
21
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I'm staying for another
22
minute.
23
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Getting back to the color
24
averaging, I wondered if there wasn't a need for some
25
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I (definition about how the averaging was to be done relative
2 to is it all of the surface area of the home, and then you
3 take an LRV value for each piece of it and then do a
4
weighted average, or how does the calculation work?
And then relative to the actual colors that are
6
used, there's reference to blending in with the natural
s vegetation, so does that mean that we need to consider
9 eliminating certain colors, for example, I mentioned
10 earlier, black? Maybe gray is okay, but not black. Maybe we
11 don't say it because it's defined as fitting in with the
12 natural environment and it will automatically catch that,
13 but I did wonder if there were any colors that shouldn't be
14 permitted?
15 I Then on the average itself, I wondered if there
16 Ishouldn't be—I think Commissioner O'Donnell mentioned this -
17 a maximum, because I was looking at some of the colors,
18 like yellow and stuff, maximum LRV that you'd have an
19
average of all the colors, but maybe you don't want the
20
window trim to be bright yellow, because in a square
21
footage weighted average you could in theory have yellow
22
windows other than it doesn't fit in with the environment,
23
29 but it wouldn't violate the average. So I wondered if there
zs shouldn't be like the average can't be more than 30, and
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I also no single measure could be more than, I don't know,
2 50, 60, 70, whatever might be an appropriate number.
3 Then on the solar thing, in addition to the solar
4
systems I have been taking a lot of course work In
5
sustainability at UC Davis, and when we went over this
6
whole thing with roofs the encouragement is to do LRV
values that are much, much higher than 30, because if you
e
can't do a solar system... So then it made me think should we
9
just ignore that because we don't want to affect visibility
10
in the hillsides, or should we consider it because of the
11
12 value of the sustainability, which is clearly defined in
13 the Hillside Standards. I thought it put you on both sides
14 of the issue and I wondered if we shouldn't think more
15 about that for the roofs in particular. And then again,
16 maybe it wouldn't be more than a maximum, but clearly with
17 under 30 you wouldn't be able to do any sustainability with
18 your roof, because it's going to be too dark. And I think
19 that was it.
20
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Commissioner
21
Hanssen. Commissioner Talesfore.
22
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: I don't know where to
23
go. I have so many; this is going to be a lot.
24
25
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I I think what I'm going to do, if I don't get
2 through this, I may submit some comments.
3
JOEL PAULSON: Any Commissioner can feel free to
4
submit written comments and we'll include that in the next
s
Planning Commission meeting.
6
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: But in the beginning, I
e just wanted to say I look at this and I go what is our
9 purpose and our intent? And that is what is our purpose in
to looking at what we have here, but more holistic, what is
11 our purpose and intent as far as being planning
12 commissioners and people who make decisions? who are we
13 making the decisions for, and what are the benefits? That
14 really weighs. we are stewards of this town and all of the
is documents that we have before us, and we have very strong
16 documents for the hillsides, and also for a lot of other
17 areas in town, historic areas.
18 I think it was brought up, I heard a couple of
19
comments tonight that reminded me that when we move into
20
certain areas of our town we really have a responsibility
21
to maintain the areas that we are moving into. This is a
22
long lead into this, but here it is. If I moved into the
23
24 Almond Grove area and I move into a historic home, I'm
zs going to have standards that I have to adhere to, but I do
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1 that willingly because I wanted to live there, and so that
2 to me, that's my purpose and I will do that.
3 If I move into the hillsides, it comes with a
4 whole document that people put their lives into, as we just
s
heard from Ms. Quintana and other people on that committee,
6
and the commissioners at that time, a whole plethora of
people. So for me, that comes with the responsibility that
e
I would love to live here because it's a special place to
9
live, but I'm hoping that the people that move in there
10
understand that when you want to live among the trees and
11
12 the hills and the birds and all the other animals, that
13 we're trying to have you live there in a way that doesn't
14 impact the hillsides themselves, and hopefully not all of
15 the animals that live there, and that also don't impact the
16 people here on the valley floor.
17 Now why is that important? Because in every other
1e document in our town those hillsides are our backdrop. They
19 are the crown jewel of where we live, and I can't tell you
20
how much it hurts me when i see things not as we intended
zl
them to be. we hope that people will understand when they
22
move into these areas to please take with you that
23
responsibility that aren't you lucky to be able to live
24
here? So that's my lead in.
25
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1 Let's just go to color averaging. I'm very
2 passionate about what I do up here. I don't believe that
3 there's anybody in this room that can really talk to us
4
about color averaging. I understand color. I dont know
s
that I could really understand this. There are color
6
experts that make their living analyzing color, and so if
e we're going to move away from what we have here, what has
9 seemed to work all these years—except for the pink house I
10 did see in the hillsides the other day when I was up there
11 looking at one of our projects, to Sandy's point, but he
12 left—then I would suggest, and I would strongly suggest,
13 that we do some investigation and possibly look for
14 somebody who makes their living with color analysis that
15 could actually come and help our town and maybe give us a
16 color standard program that could update us if we have
17 missed something. I couldn't tell you what is 30 average of
19 a house, and areou averaging ging the whole house. Is it going
19
to be all sides? There are too many complications.
20
So that would be my suggestion. Other than that,
21
I think what we have here seems to be working. Maybe there
22
23 is every once in a while, and I think it happened with the
24 Davidon project that came before us one time and you asked
zs for some color averaging and that was allowed, but that was
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1 under a very specific circumstance, and I would not start
2 into this color averaging. Who is going to decide that on
3 Staff? Who would decide that? How would that be decided,
4
Joel?
s
JOEL PAULSON: We'd be using the model that the
6
Council approved for Davidon. It's very thorough. It is a
weighted average of all of the exterior materials and the
a
LRV of those individual materials, and then it is
9
determined whether or not it complies with the average of
10
30 or not. It's the same conversation we had, as you
11
12 mentioned, that went to Council, and Council actually
13 directed Staff to bring that back to look at this option
14 for other hillside homes, and so that's why we're here
is before you now.
16 COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Then if that's the case,
17 I would like to see a review of that, I mean how that's
18 determined, if it's so formulaic.
19 JOEL PAULSON: I'll forward you the meetings
20
where it came to Planning Commission and Council, and there
21
are a number of exhibits that generally look like this.
22
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: That's fine, but I think
23
for me, I would still think that we need to maybe consult
24
25
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1 with somebody and perhaps update what we are doing. I mean
2 they may have some other ideas.
3
VICE CHAIR BADAME: I'd just like to jump in with
4
a quick question for Staff along those lines. Up until now
s
with Davidon Homes, have we had any requests in the 11
6
years since our Hillside Development Standards and
7
Guidelines were adopted to deviate from our color
a
regulations?
9
10 JOEL PAULSON: Not that I'm aware of, but just
11 from a background perspective, I think it was 1997 when the
12 previous Hillside Development Standards and Guidelines were
13 adopted—I'm looking at Lee in case my year is off—before
14 the 2004 version; that was the first time LRV compliance
15 came into the Hillside Guidelines. From that point up until
16 December 2014 Staff had interpreted that as the main body
17 color of the house; we didn't look at casement colors of
1e windows, 2x6 trim. We looked at the main body of the house,
19
and if it was natural materials, then we didn't apply that,
20
because they're natural materials and would blend with the
21
hillside.
22
23 when Davidon's request came forward it went to
24 the Planning Commission who made the recommendation to
25 Council. Council said no, we should be looking at all of
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1 the exterior materials, and so that's when this color
2 average, which was exactly what they had proposed to do,
3 was brought forward and that was looked at.
4 Some of the conversations that we've had tonight,
5
one specifically relating to whether there should be a cap,
6
and what that number should be, for any materials so that
you don't end up with a white house with a black roof, or a
e
black house with a white roof from a sustainability
9
perspective. So I think those are things that we can
to
u
definitely look at, and we'll look to other jurisdictions.
12 I I know there was some information provided to
13 (Council on four or five other jurisdictions, some semi -
14 Ilocal and some elsewhere, with hillside settings that have
15 higher LRV caps. I think the county's cap is 45, and there
16 are some others that were up to 60. Now, they weren't
17 average and we don't know the details of whether they're
18 looking at main body or they're looking at all the exterior
19 materials, but just from a background perspective, so
20
everyone has that background.
21
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Mr. Paulson.
22
Commissioner Kane.
23
COMMISSIONER KANE: If you have a model and you
24
consider it fair and reasonable for some variety on the
25
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I house, then I'm okay with that. Cap it at some reasonable
2 number, 35, 36.9, but just prevent the abuse of the
3
average, that's all.
a
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: And in fact how would
5
that happen? I think that's why I don't find this
6
foolproof.
JOEL PAULSON: I don't think we're going to get
e
9 anything that's going to be foolproof.
10 COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: I think you're right.
11 JOEL PAULSON: I don't want to lead you astray.
12 COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: In all these years.
13 JOEL PAULSON: But looking at should someone be
14 able to have a window that has a white casement where
15 you're talking about from the valley floor, a 2" perimeter
16 around it with grids, is that something that we should be
17 looking at? Or if it's 2x6 trim that's white or beige, is
1e that really going to be that visible from the valley floor?
19
So I think there are a lot of options there that we can
20
look, but (inaudible) cap.
21
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Or where they could be,
22
if it was maybe the front of the house would be less
23
24 intrusive than the back of the house, but who's going to be
zs watching all this stuff?
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1 JOEL PAULSON: We want the 360 -degree color as
2 well as the architecture.
3 COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Right. But I think then
4
there was one thing in here about the LRV and the average,
5
and this whole thing about some applicants have expressed
6
concerns to Staff regarding application of this
7
requirement, "New homes would have light colored trim," but
e
then it goes on to say, "A new accessory structure or
9
addition to an existing residence constructed," this is on
10
page 3 of the report, "prior to the adoption of the
11
12 Hillside Development Standards and Guidelines would need to
13 conform to the LRV requirements requiring painting or
14 changing the materials for the entire house to meet the LRV
15 30 and having the addition that's," blah, blah, blah, "the
16 different color, and this would result in significant added
17 cost to the homeowner."
16 They would probably have to do that anyway if
19 they were repairing or adding onto their home, because when
20
your house is already painted, it hard to match that color,
zl
and most people end up painting the entire house. So to me
22
that's just not a compelling reason.
23
JOEL PAULSON: That's a pretty common thing we
24
hear. It's the same thing with the white casement windows,
25
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1 so we're going to make them replace all of their windows to
2 an LRV casement of less than 30 when they're changing out
3 one window. we see things that are just at the building
4
permit level, and we have a number of houses if it was
5
built before 1997 they don't have the deed restriction.
6
7 COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Right. Well, then those
would be on a case-by-case.
e
9 JOEL PAULSON: Sure, but we have a lot of those
cases.
10
11 COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Do you?
12 JOEL PAULSON: Yes. Right now the requirements
13 are that all exterior materials must be LRV 30 or less, and
19 so we're looking at those on a case-by-case basis, but it's
is just one of those issues that as we move forward. And even
16 any house from 1997 to 2014, some of them have white trim,
17 some of them have white windows, and they have the deed
18 restriction.
19
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: I think if you go in the
20
hillsides you'll see that not all homes are brown either.
21
22 JOEL PAULSON: Very true, and some of that is
23 because they're more required to meet the LRV, because they
29 didn't have the deed restriction from timing.
25
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I COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Right. And how can we
2 follow? We can't be enforcing that. How do we even check
3 all of that? I mean, really. It's hard to monitor.
4 JOEL PAULSON: It is hard to monitor.
5
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: That's where I talked
6
about the responsibility, and what Rob brought up about
7
we're trying to make applicants aware and responsible. We
s
could have them sign a document, I don't know.
9
You know what? I can't go on, so I'll submit my
to
other comments in writing, okay? I have to leave. Thank
11
12 YOU'
13
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank You, Commissioner
14 Talesfore for your comments, and we will see you next time.
15 1 will look to Commissioner Erekson; I believe you had your
16 hand up.
17 COMMISSIONER EREKSON: To the Staff, we have
is public testimony about the impact of different materials on
19 reflective value using the same paint color or whatever,
20
however you look at it. I need help understanding how
21
should think about reflective value and variation in
22
materials, and how to think about reflective value and
23
different architectural styles. I'd like help in
24
understanding how I should think about the trim issue and
25
---%,I
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1 the full body of the house, and the roof and the body of
2 the house. If I should think about those together, if I
should have it together, if I should think about it
a
differently, and what the differential impacts of those
5
are.
6
I might suggest that we have a consulting
e architect for the Town who has a lot of experience in the
9 Town, and it might be useful or helpful to ask him to
10 comment on some things about architectural style and those
11 kinds of things. They would be impartial. I'm not
12 suggesting that other architects who represent other
13 projects aren't objective, but the consulting architects
14 essentially work for the Town. So that's one comment about
is colors.
16 One general comment I have about people being
17 concerned about their havingthe
expense of it, any action
18 taken by the Town to change a standard or a guideline is a
19
moment in time, and it moves forward, and there are
20
reasonable ways to grandfather the past, and reasonable
21
reasons to grandfather some of the practices in the past
22
23 that aren't the best practices going forward.
24 But to the extent that we have wisdom and we want
25 to reshape something going forward in the future as people
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I make changes, I think they should be expected to update
2 those things. We can't go through the hillside and tell
3 everybody to repaint all their homes by six months from
4 now, but as changes occur I think it's reasonable to think
5
about trying to adopt a new standard. It doesn't bother me
6
particularly to adopt a new standard; that happens all the
7
time. Building codes change, people have to update things,
e
that happens all the time, so that's not a new problem.
9
The other thing I would like to say is Davidon
to
Homes has been used, and a particular project in town has
11
12 been used, as an example over and over and over in the
13 context of these discussions. I'd just like to say for me
14 this discussion is not about one development, not about one
15 developer, and so I think we don't want to over -utilize and
16 potentially victimize one person or one developer. They may
17 be doing a good job and they may be not doing a good job, I
is don't know, but that's really at some level irrelevant to
19 these discussions. If there are issues with that one
20
particular development with respect to today's standards or
zl
future standards, that's really not part of this
22
discussion. We should be thinking about what's right for
23
the Town and right for the hillsides of the Town, because
24
25
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I that represents only a very small portion of the hillsides
2 of the Town. So that's two generalized comments.
3
The other comment, I'm going to make some
4
comments about trees, if that's okay.
5
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Of course.
6
COMMISSIONER EREKSON: Trees are obviously living
a things, and as people are, some trees are healthy, some
9 trees are not as healthy, and all trees, all trees, have a
10 lifespan. When we're doing any kind of visibility analysis
11 and the coverage, we're viewing it at a moment in time, at
12 a moment in time in the history of the Town, and a moment
13 in time of the lifespan of all of those trees.
14 I'm trying to figure out how if I should think
is about leaving out sparse canopy trees, for example, or
is leaving out trees that are in poor condition as counting
17 toward the... Should I ask the arborist tell me the average,
is tell me the remaininglife
expectancy of every tree also?
19
Hypothetically a tree could be in reasonable good condition
20
and have a very short life expectancy left too, so it's not
21
clear to me how we can exclude trees that are there just
zz
23 because they have something, because we need to be in the
24 business ultimately of reforestation in the Town and
29
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1 replenishing the trees, because all trees will die. All
2 trees do die, and we need to replenish them.
3 I'm intrigued by the deed restriction idea in
4
properties so that if we have a particular... Whatever
5
standard we have, whatever that standard is, without
6
worrying about what that standard is for the moment, and we
apply that standard and someone passes the standard, then
e
can we create an ongoing responsibility in the hillsides
9
for that homeowner, for the owner of that property, to
to
maintain that by some sort of deed restriction on that so
11
lz that they replenish and reforest, which is going to have to
13 be done, no matter whether they pass the thing, whether
19 they were way up here passing it or just barely stretch by?
15 we all know the trees are going to die someday, so I'm
16 intrigued by how we do that.
17 I also don't know fully how to understand how I
is deal with the fact that someone is going to be doing a
19 project at a moment in time, we're going to take visibility
20
analysis at this moment, and that's at a particular season
21
of the year. So do we use as the standard the least amour
22
of coverage that is provided by a tree and the season the
23
most amount of coverage is, irrespective of when the
24
project is being ... or some average of that over time to give
25
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1 the most exposure or the least exposure or some average of
2 that, or do we take the moment in time when they're making
3 the proposal? I can't figure out how to sort all that out
4
for myself.
5
If we're using the least coverage as the
6
standard—I'm not suggesting we should, I'm just using that
7
8 as an example—and we were nine months away from the least
9 coverage, then how is it fair? How do we judge fairness
10 with having someone postpone moving forward on a project
11 simply because, for example, they couldn't get financing?
12 All kinds of reasons happen that dictate when you're trying
13 to do something, so how do we deal with that issue and make
14 it both represent what we want it to do with protecting the
15 hillsides and views, but not being unreasonable and unfair
16 to people who are trying to develop properties? I can't
17 figure out how to sort all that out for myself.
18
I probably have lots of other thoughts, but I'll
19
let it go at that.
20
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Commissioner
21
Erekson. Any other comments? Commissioner Kane.
22
23 COMMISSIONER KANE: I was talking earlier about
24 the concept of trees and landscaping as a tertiary
zs consideration on visibility, and I think the point is made
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1 on pages 2 and 3 of Dr. Weissman's letter of September 15th
2 and when I say the point is made, I mean philosophically.
3 'Providing landscape screening is not an alternative to
4
reducing building height or selecting a less visible site.
s
Now I believe there he's quoting a meeting of the Planning
6
Commission from 2009 or thereabouts, it doesn't matter.
What matters is—and I'll follow this up in writing—he
e
captures the aspect of visibility not to be compromised
9
with trees and bushes, which as Commissioner Erekson points
10
out may be temporary, and he's interested in the contract
11
12 for maintaining that kind of flora.
13 That's good, but we don't police folks and we
14 don't always know what happens on construction sites, and
15 we don't have a daily reference to a tree that's healthy
16 and a tree that's suddenly falling down. What I'm going to
17 write in terms of my thoughts is not to put an emphasis on
is screening, but rather put an emphasis on the purpose of the
19 Hillside Guidelines.
20
By the way, if we were taped tonight I'd like a
21
copy of Commissioner Talesfore's opening remarks. I was
22
over here weeping. Wanted to stand up and cheer, and I'm
23
reasonably serious, because she put it really well as to
24
what our job is, as long as we have the job, and it's to
25
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\N
.21
1 protect. I don't want to namedrop, but I used to talk to
2 Wasserman a lot when I was new, and I said I don't want
3
this, and I don't want that. He said, "We have an
9
obligation to the people that exist, but we also have an
5
obligation to the people yet to come that we welcome them."
6
So there are two considerations there, and I don't want to
bury the second consideration about our future citizens,
e
9 but I also don't want to give away our purpose in
to protecting the hills, and Joanne said it really well. I
11 won't try to repeat it, but I would think that's why we're
12 all up here.
13 So time shall not erode the equity and we ought
19 not let our language get eroded for what the purposes were
15 back in the early 2000s or the first draft came up in 1997.
16 I lived through some of that period, and what happens to
17 prohibitive language is erosion and new precedent setting,
18 and now we've got a house divisible, so why can't I have a
19
house divisible? I made a comparison in the Marat/Sade
20
scene where the guy finally walks in and says, "Marat, may
21
I keep this king?" I mean things erode, and I'd like to
22
23 think that what our mission is on looking at at least these
29 two provisions of the hillside is to stop the erosion, and
zs where and as appropriate return to the original intent,
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I which was to protect the hillsides, and if that means we
2 have to become mathematicians on 24.5%, however nothing to
3 exceed 35%, that's all gamesmanship and chess. If we had
9
strong discretionary language as is on those two pages
5
referenced, then maybe we could beef it up a little bit In
6
going forward in the future.
I don't know how we can address this. What
e
concerns me the most when I sit up here is the heartbreak
9
of the new neighbors not getting what they thought they
10
were going to get. Our job is to be impassionate. If there
11
1z was a way that we could say everybody who goes up there has
13 to get a copy of this stuff, so they know that some of it
14 is onerous, and if you're a normal citizen and you read it
15 for the first time, you'd think it's ridiculous. And if
16 you're new and you just paid a gazillion dollars to get
17 what you want, it's not fair to see these things. So I wish
is we could deal with not the homeowners, but those who
19 precede the homeowners to say please ensure that the folks
20
know what they're up against.
21
Just like she said, when you move into an
zz
Historic District, when you move into the hillsides, we
23
have these things, and I don't want to disappoint and I
29
don't want to hurt, but I wish everybody knew what is up in
25
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.13
1 front of us so they don't look at us like we're idiots, and
2 if they do it's understandable, because they don't
3 understand where it came from, they don't understand why we
4
have it, and they don't understand what it is. And when we
5
try to be good government, our first priority should be
6
communication with the people to know what it is.
7
e Everybody who goes to court has a lawyer, and
9 this lawyer says that, and that lawyer says this, and it's
10
all about persuasion. So when you have a vested interest
11 you could sound persuasive, and the homeowners may or may
12 not be able to see through that, or not hear what they're
13 being told, and I wish there was a way we could write
14 language and get signed receipts on Hillside Standards and
15 (Guidelines from every new Los Gatos citizen, our new
16 Ineighbor who is going to move up there, that they know what
17 1we have. And maybe the same thing for the Historic District
1e as well.
19
It really bothers us. It did me ten years ago,
20
and it does now, that people can't get what they thought
21
zz they were going to get because a bunch of guys are going to
23 play nickel and dime. We're not playing nickel and dime; I
24 (wish we had a better way of communicating that. Okay.
25
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1 I VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Commissioner Kane.
2 Commissioner Hanssen.
3 COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I know we only have a few
4
minutes left, but I appreciate all the comments of my
s
fellow commissioners and I think they're all good ones. My
6
general feeling about where we stand right now is that the
Hillside Guidelines were developed some time ago, and then
e
there is this couple of specific things that we're being
9
asked to look at in terms of modifying the documents.
10
I didn't speak earlier about the trees, but in
11
12 the case of trees and also the color analysis I think the
13 proposed language that the Staff has created in both cases
14 generally provides more clarity and specificity to the
15 existing document and would be more helpful to the Town.
16 The only question that remains is in the case of
17 the color analysis, adding in the entire surface of the
1e house versus just the main body color of the house does
19 create some issues about the averaging and what happens; I
zo
brought those up earlier.
21
In the case of the trees, I love what Staff
22
already came up with. I wondered if we wouldn't benefit
23
from having a little bit more time, because I think Dr.
29
Weissman and Ms. Quintana put a lot of time into their
zs
I
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I thoughts on it, and we didn't reallyet to
q go through each
2 of the questions that were in our packet for today. I'd
3 feel better if we actually did talk through a couple of
4
those questions and have a consensus from the Commission
s
about it, because I think that to not go forward with this
6
is a mistake, because it's going to add specificity where
e we don't have it now, and even in the current state without
9 amendments it's going to make it easier to determine how to
to do a viewing analysis, for example, better.
11 VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Commissioner
12 Hanssen. We are out of time, and I see Commissioner Erekson
13 nodding his head, as if in agreement that maybe another
14 study session is warranted? Commissioner Erekson.
15 COMMISSIONER EREKSON: I'd like to add one real
16 quick thing for the Staff. I am concerned about how if we
17 continue to use a percentage of visibility how we should
is think about larger homes versus smaller homes.
19
I'm not sure, Vice Chair Badame, that we need
20
another study session, but I did find the questions that
21
were in the Weissman/Quintana thing very helpful. Whether 1
zz
23 agree with their answers or not is in question, but I
24 thought the questions were right on and I thought they were
25
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1 very thoughtful responses, and they caused me to think
2 about some of my answers.
3 I think if the Staff could structure the item, as
4
they often do when it's agendized, again, and carefully
s
walk us through the questions, and we did that deliberately
6
that we could accomplish both objectives at the same time
without having another session and then moving this further
e
and further out into the future.
9
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you. That was my
10
thought process as well. So at this point I'd like to thank
11
12 Staff for their proposed draft and modifications. This is
13 becoming even more complex with more information, so I am
14 confident that the Planning Department will welcome any
15 email suggestions or inquiries from Commissioners and from
16 the public and take those into consideration and respond to
17 us at our Planning Commission hearing when we are ready to
is take action as far as a motion on these items. Does the
19 Staff have anything to add to that before we adjourn?
20
LAUREL PREVETTI: we should probably continue
21
this meeting to a date certain, and I think given the
22
questions that were asked in the Staff analysis that's
23
going to be needed, probably the December 9`r would be the
24
meeting that we would be prepared to come back.
25
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I VICE CHAIR BADAME: So you are recommending that
2 we do another session, in essence that it's continued?
3
LAUREL PREVETTI: No, not to a study session, but
4
to your regular session that's scheduled for December 9`r,
5
the 7:00 O'clock hearing.
6
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Okay. Commissioner Kane.
7
8 COMMISSIONER KANE: Give me a sense of what you
9 see the agenda as being for November and December. We have
10 two months where—you now what I'm going to say—people want
11 to build houses, they want to do this, they want to do
12 that. I hate delaying. I'd sooner meet on Christmas Eve if
13 I had to rather than make them wait another month. We
14 shouldn't do that.
15 But this particular subject may take a long time.
16 We've been here two hours and maybe we've scratched the
17 surface, and maybe we're done, because three of us are
18
missing, and you know how much we talk. I'm not opposed to
19
a study session. Getting here at 4:00 o'clock is like
20
ripping off epidermis, I work, but I'd rather do that, and
21
of course it's up to you, you can recommend. If we have
22
23 agendas for people that are waiting to get things done, I
24 would look to making the effort, the sacrifice, to get here
zs for a study session and keep on doing what we're doing,
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1 because it's really important, and it's important that we
2 get it right, but not at the expense of applicants who want
3 to get things done.
4 LAUREL PREVETTI: And we certainly appreciate the
5
consideration and balancing the long-term protection of our
6
community, as was articulated by many of the Commissioners
this evening, with those applicants that are currently in
e
process.
9
Please know that we are continuing to process the
10
applications that are before us given the current guideline
11
12 standards and ordinances, and please know that ultimately
13 it's the Council that will have to make any decisions on
14 the changes to the guidelines, so even if the Planning
15 Commission and Staff could work as expeditiously as
16 possible, there would still be the calendaring and the
17 decisions that the Council would have to make.
18 I would say that if you would like another study
19 session, our ability given our workload and staffing, would
20 still puts us in December. December 2D° could be a
21
opportunity for another study session to work through the
22
questions and any additional Staff recommendations.
23
COMMISSIONER KANE: I don't want the rest of the
24
Commission to hate me, but I'm just saying we have one
25
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1 meeting in November and one meeting in December, and if
2 this subject was to be one of those meetings, people are
3 going to be waiting until February to build houses.
4
LAUREL PREVETTI: They're not waiting, because we
s
already have guidelines and ordinances that can get them
6
through the process now. I know we have one housing builder
s who is eager to see resolution on color averaging, as
9 you've heard in prior testimony, but there are ways to keep
the process going. It's just that with the issues that were
10
11 raised tonight, and given the projects that are already
12 scheduled for your consideration, it's going to take some
13 Staff work, and so a special meeting on December 2id is one
14 option. I don't know if we would be ready in November. We
15 have the holidays.
16 COMMISSIONER KANE: Madam Chair?
17 VICE CHAIR BADAME: Yes, Commissioner Kane.
18
COMMISSIONER KANE: Can we ask and see if
19
December 2nd is acceptable to Commissioners present?
20
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Well, yes, go ahead. I'm kind
21
of concerned that we're missing three Commissioners. I'm
22
23 just wondering if we do a poll at a later date, but we can
24 certainly ask the Commissioners present. Commissioner
Erekson.
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1 COMMISSIONER EREKSON: My guess is that the
2 complexity of this and the number of questions that one
3 needs to wade through could easily take from 7:00 to 11:30
9
on a particular night. In response to Commissioner Kane's
s
concern, it might be appropriate to think about scheduling
6
a special meeting of the Commission just for this topic an
not agendize anything else for that, and even if that were
e
December 2"d and the Staff could be ready by that point in
9
time. But I'm not presuming that they could, because I'm
10
sensitive to the fact that our planning Staff are
11
12 leaderless at this moment.
13 VICE CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Kane, does that
14 sound agreeable to you?
15 COMMISSIONER KANE: How does it differ from... I'm
16 not sure. Let's do something on December 2"d.
17 VICE CHAIR BADAME: would it be open for public
is communications?
19 JOEL PAULSON: Yes. We can continue it tonight to
20
December 2'd. we'll poll the rest of the Commission. We'll
21
send out an email this week, and then we'll also have to
22
check availability of the chambers.
23
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Hanssen.
29
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I COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I'm available on the 2nd I
2 would prefer it to be a special meeting. I think that we
3 should try to advance this forward and make a decision,
a
because we could spend many, many meetings just discussing
5
it, and I think we should put that on the agenda. But I
6
think the idea of making it a separate meeting from other
e agenda items, because I do think it will take a few hours
9 to get to a motion that we can have consensus on.
to
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Agreed.
11 COMMISSIONER KANE: Motion to continue to...
12 VICE CHAIR BADAME: Well, we're not making a
13 motion though, or are we making a motion?
la JOEL PAULSON: You're going to make a motion to
is continue this item.
16 VICE CHAIR BADAME: All right, let's make a
17 motion to continue the item to December 2nd, the date
is certain.
19
ROBERT SCHULTZ: At what time?
20
VICE CHAIR BADAME: 7:00?
21
COMMISSIONER KANE: 6:00?
22
VICE CHAIR BADAME: 6:00?
23
24 COMMISSIONER EREKSON: I'll second the motion if
zs it's 7:00 o'clock.
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1
2
3 want?
4
5
o' clock.
6
7
motion.
VICE CHAIR BADAME:
Wait
a
second.
COMMISSIONER KANE:
7:00
o'clock
is what you
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Kane said 6:00
COMMISSIONER KANE: 7:00 o'clock, I'll second the
e
VICE CHAIR BADAME: All in favor? I'll call the
9
question. Unanimous. All right, do we have any further
10
11 reports from Staff?
I have one Commission matter, and I would just
12
13 like to do a shout -out to a gentleman sitting in the back
14 row and wish him a Happy Birthday tonight. He comes to all
is of our hearings and he's here tonight on his birthday, so
16 Happy Birthday. There are two of you back there, so you
17 figure it out. The meeting is adjourned.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
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