Attachment 9 - Partial Verbatim Minutes from January 14, 2015 Planning Commission Meeting1
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A P P E
Los Gatos Planning
Commissioners:
Community Development
Director:
Planning Manager:
Town Attorney:
Transcribed by:
A N C E S:
Kendra Burch, Vice Chair
Mary Badame
Charles Erekson
Melanie Hanssen
D. Michael Kane
Tom O'Donnell
Joanne Talesfore
Laurel Prevetti
Joel Paulson
Robert Schultz
Vicki L. Blandin
(510) 337 -1558
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P R O C E E D I N G S:
VICE CHAIR BURCH: The next Item #2, Conditional
Use Permit Application U -14 -018 at 15991 Los Gatos
Boulevard, requesting approval of a Conditional Use Permit
for a high turnover, sit down restaurant, Super Duper
Burgers, with outdoor seating and beer and wine service
with meals on property zoned CH:PD, APE #529 -65 -028, Ms.
Walters, will give us our Staff Report.
ERIN WALTERS: Good evening, Vice Chair and
Commissioners. This subject tenant space will be located
within the Sandy Lane Commercial Center, which is the
former Swanson Ford site located at the northwest corner of
Los Gatos Boulevard and Blossom Hill Road.
On June 20, 2011 Town Council approved a Planned
Development application for a mixed -use project, including
two independent two -story commercial buildings, and also 25
residential units.
The building shells for the commercial buildings
have been under construction and received a building final
this afternoon. There are currently three active tenant
improvements in progress: a coffee shop in Building #1, a
veterinarian hospital in Building #2, and a retail shop
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that will be associated with the animal hospital, also in
Building #2.
In June 2003 three Conditional Use Permit
Applications were approved, which included the animal
hospital, the bank and the coffee shop.
Staff has received two new CUP applications for
tenant spaces within this complex; one we are seeing
tonight. One is also under review at this time, and has not
yet come to the Planning Commission, for a high turnover,
sit down pizza restaurant. All uses of this site have been
evaluated for use compatibility, traffic, parking and
accessibility.
The Applicant tonight is requesting the approval
to operate a high turnover, sit down restaurant with the
sale of beer and wine with outdoor seating.
The Applicant is proposing operating hours from
8:00am to 10:00pm, seven days a week.
The CUP is required for operation of a new
restaurant as well as alcohol service and outdoor seating.
The proposed Applicant meets the requirements for
the Town's Alcoholic Beverage Policy, which can be found in
Exhibit 6.
The proposal includes 65 seats with up to 15 of
those seats to be located on the outside patio at the
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1 corner of Los Gatos Boulevard and Blossom Hill Road. The
2 Applicant is proposing to place a 3' wood and metal railing
3 to delineate the space, and the
p proposed application meets
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all five of the Town's required outdoor seating standards
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that are all found in Exhibit 5.
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The Applicant has made revisions to the floor
plan to ensure visibility from windows at each elevation.
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9 There is a hallway area that is visible from the two
to windows that are located along Los Gatos Boulevard, and the
11 Applicant has proposed custom artwork to be installed along
12 this hallway area.
13 The property owner and West Valley Sanitation
14 have prepared and agreed upon a trash management plan for
15 the center. The plan calls for dumpsters to be located in
16 the site's two enclosed trash room, to be serviced six
17 times a week.
18 The Applicant has been in communication with the
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neighboring homeowners association, Montecito at Los Gatos
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Association, and has answered questions with regard to the
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proposed operation of the restaurant.
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Staff has recommended Conditions of Approval
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24 regarding the maximum number of seats, delivery and
25 operating hours. There will be no traffic or parking
impacts as a result of this project, and the proposed use
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conforms to the Town Code and is consistent with the
General Plan.
This concludes Staff's report, and I'm happy to
answer questions.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Thank you, Ms. Walters. Do we
have any questions? Commissioner O'Donnell.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: If I understood your
comments, you say there is another restaurant sort of in
the pipe.
ERIN WALTERS: That's correct.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: And how big is that
restaurant?
ERIN WALTERS: In regard to seats?
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Well, both ways. This
restaurant is a little over 4,000 square feet, if I recall
correctly. How big would the second high turnover pizza
restaurant be?
ERIN WALTERS: It's roughly 2,000 square feet.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: So when you took into
consideration any impacts of the present proposal, you also
considered the other proposal, which may come before us?
ERIN WALTERS: That is correct.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: All right, thank you.
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VICE CHAIR BURCH: Do we have any other
questions? Commissioner Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I visited the property,
but I'm confused about the outdoors seating and where it
is. It's mentioned to be at the corner of Los Gatos
Boulevard and Blossom Hill Road, and there was mention of a
railing be proposed, but there's a seating area right now
that has a stone wall in front of it. Is that the same
seating area, or we're talking about a different seating
area?
ERIN WALTERS: That is the same seating area.
That patio is shared by the coffee shop, Philz Coffee, that
is adjacent, as well as this proposed restaurant. The
coffee shop has approved outdoor seating, they can have up
to 12 seats total inside /outside, how they work with that,
and with the proposed restaurant and the service of alcohol
there has to be a secondary delineation, a secured area
where the service of the food and the alcohol would be
served.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: So relative to how it
looks right now, there's this wall there and then there's
basically nothing in the patio. So there's going to be a
new railing that's somewhere inside that patio to separate
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(out the Philz from the Super Duper Burgers, is that
correct?
ERIN WALTERS: That is correct, and it would be
from the street view you wouldn't be able to see it, but if
you were up on the patio it would be a metal and wood kind
of rectangular shape that is attached to where their
service door is.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: If I may be of assistance, if
you take a look at both sheets CUP -2 and CUP -3 you'll see
inside that circular enclosure it almost appears that
that's a separate room with a door, but when you look at
CUP -3 it's in fact showing you where the seating will be
delineated in that enclosure, and it shows the seats and
the railing.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: So you're saying this door
at the end of the exterior seating plan that's a few feet
away from Philz is where the railing would be? Okay.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Do we have any other
questions? Commissioner Kane.
COMMISSIONER KANE: I have a concern about
alcohol and the children. We've got Fisher School, we've
got Van Meter, and I drive by that intersection two to four
times a day and there are always children going back and
forth. When Staff looked at this, what was your concern
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about the Town Code on desirability and essential service
of alcohol with hamburgers?
ERIN WALTERS: I would defer to Mr. Paulson.
JOEL PAULSON: As we look at the applications for
these, and there have been many applications, all of which
come before the Planning Commission and all of which move
on to the Town Council. For instance, the Chipotle space in
the center across Blossom Hill also has the approval for
serving beer, and I believe it's wine margaritas. Those
things are controlled by ABC, and our police department
obviously when we receive complaints, and so the burden is
on the Applicant to show why they believe that the service
in conjunction with their meal service is necessary. That
information has been provided by the Applicant as to their
justification, and as your recommendation moves forward to
Council you can make any comments that you wish, because
they will receive verbatim minutes of the meeting this
evening, and depending on the ultimate recommendation the
Commission could choose also to not allow them to serve
alcohol, or beer and wine in this case.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Well, perhaps with the
exception of Double D's, The Happy Hound, Jack's,
McDonald's, Carl's, most of these places don't serve beer
and wine, and in the Applicant's statement they provided a
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mini business plan and said the process of going through is
simple: You order your meal and then you stock up on
beverages, and I just reacted to that. Stock up on a couple
of beers while you're waiting. Do you know what percentage
of the Applicant project that's to be takeout versus sit
down and enjoy the restaurant?
ERIN WALTERS: I would defer that question to the
Applicant with regard to the statement about the beverages
being consumed while waiting to get your meal, as well as
the percentage we could ask the Applicant.
COMMISSIONER KANE: I have one other Staff
question, if I may?
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Of course.
COMMISSIONER KANE: We just provided a CUP for
the drug store, and somewhere in here the Applicant was
saying these alcohol beverages shall not be handled by
anyone under 21. That's what they say, they're going to
handle their spirits with people 21 and older. Being a new
Commissioner I don't have an immediate understanding of if
they have to be 21 with sealed bottles, why would the Super
Burger people need to be 18 with open containers?
ERIN WALTERS: If we could, we could ask the
Applicant how that is handled in the restaurant, and how
that works with their other facilities with regard to age.
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COMMISSIONER KANE: I agree with you, I just
don't think the Applicant could know why one is 18 and the
other one is 21. Why are 18 year olds handling open service
alcohol and the people with closed bottles have to be 21?
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Could we just check with
Counsel and /or Staff, because I had a recollection that the
ABC required that the handling of alcohol, whether closed
or open, servers have to be 21. This may misspeak, but I
think that is the law.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Yes. Staff was just looking
that up. Do you want to make a comment?
ROBERT SCHULTZ: It is 21.
COMMISSIONER KANE: So the Applicant's
documentation needs to be amended?
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Yeah, and that is something
that we can handle during the motion and make sure that's
amended.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Thank you.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Any additional questions?
Commissioner Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: This is about serving
alcohol with meals. This is regarding the Town's policy to
serve it with the meal. How is it handled? Like for
instance, if someone orders a meal and they have a beer
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with it, and then what if they come back and they want to
have beers? Do they have to buy more food or is that
covered under the meal that they've handled, or is it just
not addressed?
ERIN WALTERS: I'd defer that to Mr. Paulson.
JOEL PAULSON: Generally within reason, and when
the Applicant comes up they probably have some policies or
procedures relating to that, but if someone ordered a meal
and they wanted to have more than one beer, I'm sure that
they would allow them to do that. Now, if they want to sit
there, finish their meal and have 12 beers over a course of
however long, that is problematic. it's not intended to be
like a bar where you could go in and just sit and drink
and /or order food and then sit and continue to drink for an
extended period of time. But the Applicant hopefully can
shed some additional light on that subject.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Thank you.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: I want to get the serving
straight. So the patrons place their order at a counter,
and then do they carry their own food from the counter and
seat themselves as long as it's inside, because if it's
outside they have to be escorted by a restaurant employee
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if they're drinking alcohol outside, but inside do they
collect their food at the counter and then seat themselves?
ERIN WALTERS: That's my understanding.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: Thank you.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I know this isn't required
in terms of looking at development proposals today, but I
was wondering about parking. When I went by the facility it
didn't seem like there was very much, and considering that
we're trying to get more people riding their bikes, the
sidewalks looked fine, but I wasn't sure about the parking.
Do you have a comment on that?
ERIN WALTERS: As attached in the Staff Report,
there's a parking table that describes each tenant space
within the center. Some of the tenant spaces have not been
leased yet and they're vacant, but they've been programmed
in terms of use. Based on those calculations and the Town
Code requirement for parking, that is how we've come up
with what is how many spaces are out there and then how
many spaces are required per each use.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I'm confused; because what
I was looking at looked like car parking, not bicycle
parking.
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ERIN WALTERS: I apologize. There are bike
lockers out on the site, and I don't have the exact number
of how many there are. I was out at the site today and I
saw a couple, but I don't have the exact number. Then there
are also bike racks as well.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I saw the bike locker, I
saw a couple of bike racks, but I thought to myself Super
Duper Burgers seemed like a place that families would go
after they were at Vasona and stuff, and they'd be riding
their bikes, and I wondered if there would be enough places
for more than one family to park if that were the case?
ERIN WALTERS: That's a great question, and I
don't know the total number of bike parking racks at this
time.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Our Town Attorney has a
comment.
ROBERT SCHULTZ: Yes, I want to quickly correct
myself. Under state law, to be a bartender you have to be
21, but you can be 18 to be a server, a waiter, a waitress,
but certainly you could still make a recommendation to be
restrictive if you want to make that recommendation to City
Council that any service of the wine and alcohol you must
be 21. You can certainly make that a recommendation to City
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Council, but under state law you can be 18 and be a waiter
or waitress and serve alcohol.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Thank you for the
clarification. I think we should go ahead and move to the
public portion. If we have any additional questions of
Staff, let's just go ahead and hold them to the end. Thank
you so much, Ms. Walters, for all your information. I will
call now Tom Consunji.
ERIN WALTERS: Actually, I believe the Applicant,
Hannah Walbridge, wanted to speak first on behalf of Super
Duper.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Oh, okay. Sorry about that.
Ms. Walbridge, and to remind you that you have five
minutes. Make sure that the mic is close to you and state
your name and your address for the record, please.
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: Good evening, Planning
Commissioners. My name is Hannah Walbridge and I'm here for
15991 Los Gatos Boulevard for Super Duper. I handle all the
new development for the restaurant.
We're a small, local company out of San Francisco
and we were founded in 2010 by two chefs who shared a
passion for great food, as I'm sure some of you have read.
We believe in slow food values, everything fresh, local and
sustainable. We partner with local purveyors like Straus
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Creamery for our soft serve, and Golden Gate Meat Company
for our beef. We do a lot of things in- house. We make our
own pickles; we grind our own beef to keep the quality up.
These beliefs carry over into our interiors. We
like to create inviting, warm interiors that are open to
the community and to the families that live within that
community. We're very family friendly; we offer a very
simple menu, which speaks to that. We like to use reclaimed
and recycled materials in our build -outs. We commission
local artists for artwork. We like to keep a very simple,
approachable vibe and culture to the restaurant.
All of our packaging is a hundred percent
compostable and we recycle all of our cooking oils. This
cuts down on our waste and the noise and all of the kind of
buildup in the neighborhood and around the neighborhood
with the trash.
We are very excited about the opportunity to be
in the Town of Los Gatos. I personally grew up in Willow
Glenn, as you all know is very close to here, and have
spent a lot of time in the Town. We really feel strongly
that our concept and our values are in line with that of
the Town of Los Gatos.
We believe in the community here and we like to
partner with sports teams and local charities and give back
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to the community. Every year on our anniversary we do a
Free Food Day where we give away free food and like to
celebrate our success with our guests, because we really
believe that the community and the guests are part of our
success, a large part, actually one hundred percent a part
of our success.
We've been really fortunate to win a lot of
awards and accolades over the last couple years. We've
gotten best burger awards from everything from SF Weekly to
Biz Journal and 7x7 magazine. We've been on Eater SF's "38
Essential San Francisco Restaurants" list for the past
three years and we attribute all this to the communities
that we're in and building those relationships with our
guests. We feel like the Town of Los Gatos is a great place
to have our South Bay flagship location and really look
forward to working with the community here to make that
happen.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Thank you. Do you have any
questions? I do. I assume as you chose this site that you
spent a decent amount of time in the vicinity there. As
you're aware, we do have schools diverging all in that
location, and in particular I'm going to address the middle
schoolers.
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When school lets out that entire corner of the
shopping across the way is flooded with middle schoolers.
I'm going to imagine that if you are put in that corner,
after school you're going to see a large influx of middle
schoolers; they're always looking for a nice place to hang
out. I would be interested in how you handled other
communities, because obviously if you have beer and wine
sales you may have somebody in there drinking, and you have
a large, young student population, so how you've maybe
managed a level of separation between those to ensure the
safety of the children, just to ensure that they do have a
safe place to hang out. Have you experienced this in any
other communities?
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: We do. Our Mill Valley
location is one that I find is probably most comparable in
area and demographic. We're right down the street from the
high school, Mt. Tamalpais High School, and they have open
campus and they also let out around 3:00 o'clock. We're
right in the downtown Mill Valley area there and get a lot
of that traffic, and our patio is kind of one of the
hangout spots after school.
We serve beer and wine. We serve it because we
like to attract adults to our restaurant over taking their
kids to a different fast food restaurant; they can come and
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enjoy it as kind of an extra bonus and perk. After work
when they bring their kids they can have a glass of wine or
beer. Also downtown San Francisco, we do see some at lunch.
But in an environment like Mill Valley, like
here, we don't see a lot of those sales at lunch time, and
it's a pretty small percentage of our sales, varying
location 5 -100, closer to 5% at Mill Valley. So it's not as
much of a concern, because we don't really see people
ordering that during the day.
It's also only given from behind the counter and
it's only on tap. There are no beer bottles; there are no
glasses of wine. It's strictly we have two wines and two
beers that we serve from a tap and it's given to the person
when they order their food, period.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Thank you. Commissioner
Talesfore.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Thank you. It's a pretty
big space, I was visiting it today, and under your
Condition of Approval here, and also in your letter to us,
you talk about porters. The Condition of Approval that I'm
reading in Exhibit 3 says, "A porter shall be available at
all times to maintain the patio area." So can you talk to
us a little bit about the porters? Are they inside and
outside? Do they stand at the door? How does that work?
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HANNAH WALBRIDGE: The porters. I didn't see that
one; I'm sorry. The porters?
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: It's in Exhibit 3 of
your Conditions, and it's also in the letter. Now, let's
see. I'm sorry; I thought you would be familiar with it.
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: No, I am. I'm sorry, I'm not...
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Let's see, where was it?
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: Oh, I'm sorry, it's semantics.
Yeah, we actually have somebody on our staff that is
assigned to look over and maintain that outside area at all
times.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: So somebody will be
assigned to do that only, or I would imagine other things
as well?
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: Yeah, like they check the
restrooms, make sure the restrooms are clean. They'll do
the outside area. With this with the alcohol, the
conditions on the beer and wine, we're going to have to
maintain and monitor the patio more than in some of the
other locations, so we'll have somebody on staff to do
that.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Thank you.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Badame.
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COMMISSIONER BADAME: How many locations do you
have, and do all of them serve beer and wine?
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: We have eight other locations:
Two in Marin, five in San Francisco, and one at Valley
Fair, and they do all serve beer and wine in the same
fashion, through a tap, two beers and two wines.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: Thank you.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Along the same line of
questioning, are all of your locations approximately the
same size?
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: We vary. We have on location
as small at 1,800 square feet in San Francisco, and then we
have another one about 3,600. This will be our largest one,
and so we've been working with our interior designer to
find some interesting ways to make it feel warm and
comfortable, because that is a big space.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: So you're saying that this
location in Los Gatos, even though we're so much smaller
than San Francisco, is going to be your single largest
location?
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: It is, physically.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: By how much?
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: By about 500 square feet.
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VICE CHAIR BURCH: Do we have any other
questions? Commissioner Kane.
COMMISSIONER KANE: I have two, if I may. Back to
the issue of a porter, on page 4 of the Staff Report it
advises, "The patio will be seated and monitored by the
restaurant hostess," and on page 5, Item 5 continues, "When
alcoholic beverage service is permitted outside a
restaurant employee shall seat patrons." Now that doesn't
sound like a custodial personnel cleaning up. What exactly
does that mean, that the hostess will do the seating and if
somebody orders a drink someone else will seat them if they
go outside?
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: Since we aren't a full sit down
restaurant we don't necessarily have a busser and a
hostess. In some of the San Francisco restaurants we're
quite busy, so we have people that are assigned to stay on
the floor, help people find their seats, clear trays if
they need to when they see them, clean up, make sure that
things stay orderly and maintained. This person in this
location will be assigned to really monitor the patio,
because I feel like that's going to be... We have a lot of
space in this location for people waiting. I'm not so
concerned about somebody kind of taking care of that area,
it's more the patio area and monitoring the alcohol and
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making sure that's it's all clean and people are seated
properly. That's why we see that person taking on that
role.
COMMISSIONER KANE: All right. I understand
keeping it clean and organized, but this says, "When
alcoholic beverage service is permitted a restaurant
employee shall seat patrons." What exactly does that mean?
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: That means that they're going
to have to seat the patio. I think what we're going to have
to do to monitor it, to make sure it's taken care of, is
just seat the patio. People aren't going to be able to just
sit there randomly; we're going to have to seat it.
COMMISSIONER KANE: All right. And there's
another section that talks about... It's in the very nice
letter about all of your awards and quality of service. The
gentleman says... Let me ask you a question first. In the
business plan what do you project as the percentage of
takeout and the percentage of sit down?
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: For this location we think
we're going to be at about 70% sit down and 30% takeout.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Then regarding that 30 %, Mr.
Sarti, the owner, in his letter says, "At Super service is
simple. Patrons place their order at a counter and stock up
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on beverages." So if I'm taking out two burgers, can I
stock up on two beers?
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: Absolutely not. We're a Type
41 license. We're only allowed to serve beer and wine on
the premises. There's no removal of that beer and wine.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Thank you. And if I was
ordering takeout, could I order a beer while I was waiting?
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: I have to find out the policy
on that, but I know that we don't let people take out beer
and wine, so they'd have to say they were eating there and
eat there. But I'd have to find out how that's handled
exactly.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Thank you.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Any other questions? All
right, no. Thank you very much. At the end you will have an
additional three minutes to speak, if you choose to, to
address any other issues that come up.
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: Great. Thank you.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: All right, so now I will call
Mr. Tom Consunji. Please state your name and address for
the record.
TOM CONSUNJI: My name is Tom Consunji and I
represent CHL Ventures, the owner of the property. Did you
need...
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VICE CHAIR BURCH: Well, you put in a speaker
card, so if you have anything, you have three minutes to
address us.
TOM CONSUNJI: Well, good evening, Commissioners
and Vice Chair, and I just want to say that as a
representative of the property owner, CHL Ventures, we
strongly support the application of Super Duper. We think
that they are a very, very good addition to the complement
of establishments that are going to be at Sandy Lane
Commercial Center, and I am just actually here to answer
whatever questions might arise.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Thank you. Do you have any
questions? No. Thank you very much. All right, next I will
call David Yu. Mr. Yu, please state your name and address
for the record, and you have three minutes to speak.
DAVID YU: Hi, my name is David Yu; I live at 629
Blossom Hill Road and I'm representing Montecito HOA as a
board member.
This is in regard to a statement made in the CUP
regarding shared parking. On page 7 of the CUP it mentions
that there are seven shared parking spaces with businesses
on the residential lot. Last year around September I had
communicated with Mr. Paulson and he confirmed that this
statement is incorrect and that there is no requirement for
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the shared parking, so I would like the Commissioners to
remove the statement from this particular CUP and all
future CUPs for businesses coming into Sandy Lane.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: All right, do we have any
questions?
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Could we have Mr.
Paulson clarify that for us?
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Yes, please.
JOEL PAULSON: As the PD was approved they were
approved for a total of 128 spaces, so provided for the
allowance of seven additional spaces designated for the
commercial site. There was confusion and Mr. Yu was
concerned, rightly so, that that adjacent residential
parking could be used for commercial, and that is not the
case. So they get credit for it, but there are technically
only 121 spaces, I believe, on the site for this use.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I don't understand that.
They get credit for it, but you can't use it?
JOEL PAULSON: Correct, that was how the Planned
Development was approved. It was approved with that
condition and so they get credit for those spaces, and I
think there was some reasoning that with the adjacent homes
there would be potentially many patrons of those businesses
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that would not have to drive or park, because they'd be
parking in the residential area.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: But if we assume you
have 121 spaces and not 128, how does our analysis go for
these restaurants coming up? Because I don't care what you
credit them with, you're only going to have 121 parking
spaces.
JOEL PAULSON: The way that Staff has looked at
it, and Ms. Walters may have some additional information,
is that the space, just like many of our downtown sites
have zero parking spaces but they have credits for parking
spaces, so in this case the commercial was designated for a
credit, or an additional seven spaces, which gets us to the
128, and that is what is used for all of the tenants.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: My last question, if the
Chair permits, would be I just would indicate to you that
when we close the public hearing I, for one, am going to
want to explore that, because downtown is a different issue
as far as I'm concerned, and I'd like to know how this
whole thing flies if you have 121 spaces, not 128. If it
works fine with 121, then I would be comfortable. If you
say well no, it only works with these imaginary spaces, I
would be uncomfortable, and so I'm just giving you a heads
up.
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VICE CHAIR BURCH: Okay, we will continue that.
Do we have any other questions? Seeing none, thank you.
Next is Natalie Ladd, and again, please state your name and
address for the record and you have three minutes to
address.
NATALIE LADD: My name is Natalie Ladd and I live
at 653 Blossom Hill Road. I am also a Commissioner on the
Transportation and Parking Committee, but I am here
representing myself as a resident, and I'm one of the board
members at Montecito.
I wanted to address the seven parking spaces, but
I believe that's also taken care of now.
We are really excited to have Super Duper Burgers
there. We're a little concerned about some of the noise and
traffic that's going to arise. I don't know if this is
necessarily an issue we need to bring up with Super Duper
Burgers, but since the property management is here, they
also own the area across the street where Starbucks is, and
we regularly have the cleaning of the parking lot happen at
about 3:30am in the morning, sometimes at midnight. For
about eight or nine months they were mowing the lawn as
early as 6:OOam. We recently had the code compliance send
them letters and they are now finally mowing the lawn at
8:OOam.
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Because that's a little closer to our
residential, it's adjacent to the residential, I'm a little
concerned of how we could manage and take that into
consideration as more CUPs arise, to be mindful of the
residents as to when they take out garbage. I understand
there's a process in place, if they're going to take out
garbage only at certain hours. We're concerned about people
rumbling through the garbage cans and trying to get
recyclables, or dumping glass out at night when a
restaurant closes, or people hanging out, more the cleaning
of the parking lot. So I'm just more concerned about the
noise, if we could please address that for all future
businesses coming in.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Thank you. Do we have any
questions? All right, thank you. At this time, Ms.
Walbridge, you do have another three minutes if you would
like to come and address anything that you just heard.
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: I would like to just address
the noise issue a little bit. We are very familiar with
this, being in close quarters in a few of our locations.
Like I said earlier, a hundred percent of our packaging is
compostable and all of our beer and wine is on tap, so we
don't have any bottles, cans, recycling; it's all
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compostable paper materials and a little bit of food waste,
so that helps reduce the noise.
We also are sensitive and set up schedules for
taking out the trash so that the rummaging through and
opening and unlocking noise doesn't bother the neighbors.
Also lock the containers so that nobody else has access to
them, because we also have dealt with that a bit, people
trying to gain access for food or whatnot, so they will be
locked and that will be controlled with our management and
we will have specific times that they take them out. We
usually take it out once after the lunch rush and once
after the dinner rush, and we can move that up a bit to
accommodate homeowners and make sure that it's a minimum.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Great, thank you. Do we have
any questions? Commissioner Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: So relative to what you're
saying, there isn't going to be any cleaning activity
between 10:OOpm and 8:OOam?
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: We can schedule it so that
there's not any cleanup. We're not responsible for the
common area, we're only responsible for our space, but
4ithin our space, yes.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Well, this might be a
question for Staff, but I would want to know who is
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responsible for the common area, because (inaudible)
organizations are using it.
Then my second question for you is it dawned on
me when Ms. Ladd was speaking, is there music playing in
the restaurant and on the patio?
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: Inside the restaurant, yes. We
don't have any plans to put it on the patio. It's a shared
patio, so it's common area. But we do have music that plays
within the restaurant. I wouldn't say it's background
music, but it's not live music. We usually have three or
four speakers throughout the space that are evenly spaced.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: So then since it is a
mixed -use facility, the residents that are nearby wouldn't
be able to hear it...
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: No.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: ...unless they entered the
restaurant?
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: Mmm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Thank you.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Any other questions?
Commissioner Erekson.
CHARLES EREKSON: So you would be comfortable
with a condition that would not permit amplified sound in
the exterior seating area?
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HANNAH WALBRIDGE: Yes.
CHARLES EREKSON: Because you have another system
for alerting me when my order is ready?
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: Yes, we do. We use pagers, or
we give people table numbers.
CHARLES EREKSON: That's what I assumed.
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: But at this location, because
of the size, we use pagers, because otherwise it's too
loud.
CHARLES EREKSON: So may I ask you one other
question if no other Commissioners have a question of the
Applicant? I need to know when you anticipate opening,
because I've promised Commissioner Talesfore that I would
take her out to eat, and we need exterior seating
reservations, because she didn't believe that anyone would
sit and eat at the outside exterior area, so I need to know
when I need to have my money ready to take her.
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: All right. Well, hopefully
sooner rather than later.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Madam Chair, I'm hearing an
issue of conflict of interest here, and I'm quite taken
aback.
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VICE CHAIR BURCH: I'm a little hurt I wasn't
invited too. All right, we don't have any more questions
for the Applicant. Thank you very much.
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: Thank you.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: All right, we're going to
close the public portion of the public hearing and now ask
if any Commissioners have questions of Staff? Mr. Kane.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Vice - Chair, for the Town
Attorney, can we go over that 21 and 18 again?
ROBERT SCHULTZ: Under state law, since they're
just serving beer and wine, you could be 18. So you could
have a server there by state law that says 18, but you
certainly could be more restrictive.
COMMISSIONER KANE: I understand that.
ROBERT SCHULTZ: If the Planning Commission wants
to make a condition that says service of beer and wine has
to be 21, then they're always going to have to have someone
on Staff who is 21, and if someone ordered a beer, they'd
be the one that would have to pour it and give it to them.
COMMISSIONER KANE: I'm just not understanding
the difference between tapping a beer and you've got at 18.
What about the fumes?
ROBERT SCHULTZ: Bartenders are mixing drinks,
and it's usually the hard alcohol. It's what a bartender is
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and that's why it's 21, but in a restaurant that has a bar,
the bartender is 21 and they make the drinks or they pour
the beer, and then they give it to a server to give it to
them.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Okay, because it's along the
same lines. The food is quality, the restaurants are good,
I researched what they do on the website and it all looks
great. I just remain concerned about what years and years
ago we called "kids in bars." I just find trouble
supporting the service of alcohol when minors are present,
and clearly it's going to be a congregation from school,
the way Starbucks is now. I just don't see the necessity
for it, and the conditions from the Town Code are
philosophical and go to quality of life and integrity and
harmony and essential services. I just don't see it, and I
worry about the kids being in that establishment.
On the other hand, being a new Commissioner, I
don't have a sense of what has been done in Rome, and I
know that we don't have precedence when everything is on a
case -by -case basis, but I don't see penalizing these folks
if other folks are not being penalized. Have we ever
considered hours of service for beer and wine, like from
6:00 o'clock to 10:00 o'clock, so that the children who are
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flooding in from school to get a burger go into a different
environment?
JOEL PAULSON: That certainly is an option for
the Commission. They're free to recommend any conditions
that they see appropriate.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Has it been done before, and
would it be fair?
JOEL PAULSON: I can't recall any that have
restricted it to either evening or like lunchtime but while
school is in, and then evening. The monitoring of that
would also be challenging, but if that's something that the
Commission feels strongly about, then that's certainly
something that can be placed in a condition.
ROBERT SCHULTZ: My experience is not with the
Town, but other towns and cities. I don't think I've ever
seen an hourly like that, like 6:00 to 10:00, but I
certainly have seen it restricted to indoors instead of the
outdoors if you didn't want it in the outdoor patio area;
that's something I've seen in many conditions.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Do we have any takeouts that
serve alcohol where there is a sign or some clarification
that you cannot be served alcohol if you're doing a
takeout, you can't order a couple of beers and jump back in
your car?
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ROBERT SCHULTZ: Certainly that can be a
condition. I've seen that condition, maybe not in this
town, but in other towns and cities. I'm not sure if ours
don't, but certainly that could be a condition if there's
takeout and while waiting for takeout there will be no
service of alcohol. That certainly is a recommendation you
make also.
COMMISSIONER KANE: All right, thank you.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Erekson, do you
have a question or are you just playing with your pen?
CHARLES EREKSON: I have a couple of questions, a
question for probably Mr. Paulson, since he's the senior
member of Staff here by length of service.
In the Conditional Use Permit for the Garrett
Station and Vasona Station, which I believe, if I
understand their service approach for this restaurant, it
will be pretty much identical to the Garrett Station, my
person experience would suggest that we have not required
the service of alcoholic beverages to be made by an
employee to people sitting in that patio. So do you recall
what sort of limitations are on the Garrett Station, A, and
B, more recently —and I just don't remember this so we'll
see what he remembers better than me —we issued a CUP to
Mooyah Burgers at the Downing Center, which I believe their
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service approach is very similar to this restaurant, and I
don't remember whether they have alcoholic beverages or
not; I just don't remember.
JOEL PAULSON: We'll pull that up on the CUP
table on the Town's website so we can get you a definitive
answer on both of those restaurants.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner O'Donnell.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Just further to that,
there are I believe a number of places in Town that have
outside dining and outside service of alcohol. For example,
at Old Town there are at least two restaurants that come
immediately to mind that has outside seating and outside
service of alcohol. There's a Mexican restaurant downtown
near the theater —I'm having senior moments in the names of
these places —that also serves in the back. There is also a
restaurant across the street from Old Town that also serves
on the side. So there are a number of restaurants in Town
that already do this apparently without trouble, and the
police department have to okay the service of alcohol, but
to the extent that Commissioner Kane is concerned, I don't
know why it would be harmful, for example, to impose a
condition that said a year trial to see how they do rather
than judge that they are not going to go well when we have
I can count at least five places already doing this. And
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the kids, for example, in Old Town, you walk across the
bridge from the high school and you're right in Old Town.
We haven't had a problem with that, so I would like to give
them the benefit of the doubt, but if Commissioner Kane is
concerned, we could keep a time limit on it to inspect that
to make sure it was without trouble.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Talesfore.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: And just to add to the
list of restaurants, the one that comes to my mind is Main
Street Burgers, which is very popular with the young set,
and I don't think we've had an issue, but I would tend to
agree, if you felt more comfortable, I think we could... I
mean this is a new restaurant coming to town asking for a
CUP for beer and wine. I could see that we would maybe put
a time to show, so I would go along with that.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: I would be agreeable to a
time limit as well, but I would just like to remind the
Commissioners that across the street is a police operations
building, so it will be under scrutiny.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Well, we don't want the
police in there either.
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VICE CHAIR BURCH: Well, it sounds like we're
moving in the direction of a motion. Does anyone want to
venture one? Commissioner Erekson.
CHARLES EREKSON: Before we do that, unless the
Staff could suggest to us that they required at Garrett
Station or Mooyah Burgers, which I think are the two most
comparable, and Main Street Burgers, I don't see what we
gain by restricting the service on the patio to be served
by someone for alcoholic beverages. It's not clear to me
what we gain by doing that and it will be challenging to
enforce. I mean I'm just trying to be practical here,
because someone would have to declare where they were going
to sit when they ordered. So I'm going to declare that I'm
going to sit indoors, but there's no seating indoors, and
then I go try to sit down, so I'm going to have to hold my
beer, can't sit down and eat, et cetera. It's not
completely clear to me what we gain by imposing that on the
operator.
And it seems like to me there are practical
complications, and to the extent that they will have
someone monitoring the use, I mean it's hypothetically
possible, if we're concerned about them passing alcoholic
beverages to someone who is underage, you can do that
inside as well as outside. In a space that large, someone
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could get lost in a corner of the inside as well as a
corner of the outside, so I'm not a hundred percent sure
what we gain by doing that.
It seems like to me the real issue is will we
have a conscientious operator who will operate not just by
the letter of the CUP, but also by the intent of the CUP,
and if we do, we won't have problems, and if we don't,
we'll have problems.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner O'Donnell.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I'd forgotten I wanted
to have a discussion around the parking. Staff did a lot of
I'm sure very good work on figuring out how we're going to
be able to accommodate all the parking from not only this
use, but the other ones coming down the pike and the likely
ones that will be coming, but I don't know how critical the
absence of seven actual parking spaces as opposed to the
credited spaces are. So can anybody with Staff tell me, if
we remove that seven from consideration and assume we only
had 121, forgetting the argument about credit, would we
have a problem?
JOEL PAULSON: Yes, we would be two spaces short.
I think it's 126 total, taking into consideration
everything that's been approved and the upcoming pizza
restaurant that you'll be reviewing, and so that would
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equate to eight seats total split between probably those
two restaurants.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Could I hear the
rationale of saying let's pretend like there are seven
spaces that we know are not there?
JOEL PAULSON: Unfortunately, I wasn't involved
in the original project, but as we looked back through the
approval, approval was based on understanding that they
were only going to be able to put a certain number of
parking spaces in the commercial portion, so the
residential side was actually over - parked, and so they gave
them credit for seven parking spaces that are located in
the residential space.
Some of that basis, as I understand it, was that
some of the tenants of the adjacent residential units, as
well as the adjacent residential units behind that in the
apartments and condominiums, there are quite a number of
spaces there, and Placer Oaks, you might get a better
opportunity for people to actually walk, and so those
people whose residential spaces may not need to drive and
park there.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Did you also say if one
were to take away two seats essentially from both
restaurants, then you'd be okay?
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JOEL PAULSON: It would be four seats. It's two
parking spaces and for the...
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Well, that's a total of
four. I mean is it four from one or is it...
JOEL PAULSON: It's eight total.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Oh.
JOEL PAULSON: So parking for restaurants in this
area is one space for every four seats.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: All right, thank you
very much.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: I meant to ask... I'm sorry, go
ahead.
JOEL PAULSON: Sorry, I wanted to get back to
Commissioner Erekson's comments. The Mooyah actually
doesn't have alcohol; they weren't approved for alcohol.
Garrett Station does not have any restrictions. Main Street
Burgers, they do not have restrictions as far as serving
(inaudible) in those areas, and I don't recall any
restrictions for serving in any of our restaurants in town.
CHARLES EREKSON: Okay, thank you.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: I want to ask a follow up
question on the parking just for my own knowledge. There
are still a couple spaces here that just say "future
tenant," so when you're doing these calculations how do you
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determine the number of parking spaces to make sure? You're
saying you know it's going to be four per restaurant. Well,
how are you taking into account the number of parking
spaces required for those other unknowns?
JOEL PAULSON: Fortunately, in this case we
actually have tenants either allocated through approvals or
with a pending application where we know all of the tenants
for all the ground floor space. So then for the second
story space that's located in the buildings that remain, we
program that as office, which requires one space for every
235 square feet. So that's where we calculate that, and so
should a restaurant want to go upstairs or a retail use
want to go upstairs, the retained use actually has the same
parking requirement. The restaurant would be based on that
square footage divided by the 235, which would give you a
number of spaces allocated to that space, and that would
correspond to a number of seats.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Thanks. Commissioner Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I had a comment and a
question. When Commissioner Erekson brought up Garrett
Station it reminded me that the only time I've ever been to
Garrett Station is for these big, huge soccer /lacrosse
parties for my youngers, and I've never witnessed any
problem when parents ordered alcohol. It's the exact same
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format. You go the counter, order your food, they give you
your drinks, you sit down and they buzz you with a pager.
And I've never witnessed any problems, and so that made me
feel better about this.
I had a minor question on the parking. When I was
visiting the property I liked what I thought was some spots
designated as clean air vehicle, but I wondered what would
keep people that didn't have a clean air vehicle from
parking. And what defines a clean air vehicle? Is it a
hybrid, or is it an electric vehicle only? I was just
curious about that.
JOEL PAULSON: I don't know the strict definition
of clean air vehicle, but I imagine if you can get one of
those stickers, then you're probably a clean air vehicle.
There are some locations that we have that are electric
vehicle only spaces and generally those are ones with
chargers in front of them, and there are also requirements
for a certain number of those types of spaces to be
included in the development based on a number of spaces
that are provided. So I don't have a strict definition for
what constitutes clean air vehicle.
How would we stop someone not in a clean air
vehicle from using those? I don't know that we can, but I
would look to our Town Counsel to see.
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ROBERT SCHULTZ: My understanding is the police
are working on an ordinance right now. A lot of towns and
cities are wrestling with the same issue on enforcement,
not only for a clean air vehicle but for the charging
stations and how long and where, so that's going to be
coming forward to Council so that those definitions can be
clarified.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Talesfore.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Thank you. As a follow
up to the Town's Required Outdoor Restaurant Seating
Standards that's on page 4 and 5 of the report, and
Commissioner Erekson brought this up and he's questioning
it, so, "When alcoholic beverage service is permitted
outside a restaurant, employee shall seat patrons," that's
the standard?
JOEL PAULSON: Correct.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: And then the italicized,
"The outdoor patio will be seated and monitored by
restaurant employees," what is that? Is that an
interpretation or...
ERIN WALTERS: That was the discussion with the
Applicant to meet these requirements, so it is a
requirement of #5, and then based on our discussions it
would be the restaurant employees would monitor.
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COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Is that true of all the
restaurants we have named up here tonight?
ERIN WALTERS: If they have outdoor seating that
serves alcohol, they need to make these five requirements.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: All right, thank you.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner O'Donnell.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I was going to make a
motion, but I'll hold off (inaudible) might be a question.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Okay. Commissioner Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I just had more of a
question, and this is probably because I'm a new
Commissioner. I understand that the Conditional Use Permit
goes with the property, so I saw that there was a
limitation in the proposal of two years when it would
expire, and at which point I guess they would have to
reapply, so I wondered what would happen to the property?
Like supposing Super Duper Burgers had a really tough time
and they moved out after a year, what happens in the...
JOEL PAULSON: The condition you're referencing
is they actually have to vest the Conditional Use Permit,
meaning that they have to open the restaurant within two
years, otherwise the Conditional Use Permit expires. Should
they open and struggle, as you suggest, and they close,
then you have another restaurant, and if they can live with
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the current conditions as they are approved, then another
restaurant could occupy that space.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner O'Donnell, you
want to venture a motion?
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I'm going to try a
motion. I have a feeling that I'm inviting people to give
me some conditions that I will either forget or not think
of, but just to get this on the floor I will make the
motion.
I'm going to move the approval of the application
and the recommendation to the Town Council, because it
involves alcohol.
First that no further environmental analysis is
required, because a Mitigated Negative Declaration and
Mitigation Monitoring and Reporting Program were adopted by
the Town Council on June 6, 2011 and that's further
developed in Exhibit 2.
The required findings are also set forth in
Exhibit 2, and those are (inaudible) required by Section
20.20.190.
And I would recommend the approval of the
Conditional Use Permit U -14 -018 subject to the conditions
of Exhibit 3 and the further conditions that the parking be
reduced by four. Well, the seats be reduced by four seats,
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and as it's presently divided between inside and outside, I
assume that could be at their discretion, but by four
seats. That the conditions, and they may already,
specifically provide that there will be no outside music or
other outside mechanically produced noise or sound. And
also that all exterior maintenance by staff such as
cleaning and that kind of thing, all exterior work of that
nature by the Applicant, not occur from I think it's I'm
arbitrarily going to say from 10:00pm until 8:OOam. That
does not speak to the owners, because they're not before
us; it does speak to this applicant.
So those are the ones that I can think of, so
that's the motion. I'm inviting people who think I forgot
something.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Erekson.
CHARLES EREKSON: Just a clarification. You said
to reduce the seating by how much?
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: My understanding is we
need a total of eight, and maybe I misunderstood the
numbers. So it would be four from this Applicant, and we
can't decide now, but if we take four away from the next
applicant, that's the eight that would be required to get
into 121.
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JOEL PAULSON: You know what, I think we were
looking at the 126 versus the 128. The 121 are actually
onsite. I'm looking to Ms. Walters.
ERIN WALTERS: Fifteen seats.
JOEL PAULSON: So it would be 15 seats from each?
ERIN WALTERS: For total.
JOEL PAULSON: Total?
ERIN WALTERS: Total from...
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Well, since I can't
divide 15 by two very well, and since they're up first, I
would change mine from four to seven.
CHARLES EREKSON: Let me second the motion so we
can move forward, and then I have a question.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Okay, so Commissioner Erekson.
CHARLES EREKSON: So this is for whomever from
the Staff can answer this question, and maybe I missed
something here or maybe I'm having trouble counting or with
math. If I look at the table that is in Section E of the
Staff Report, I believe if I understand that table
correctly, it's a calculation of the required parking
spaces of space which has already been issued a Conditional
Use Permit, so that's an accurate number, or it's a
projection of the number of required parking spaces for
ones which we know are in the pipeline, except for the
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second floor, which there aren't any in the pipeline, but
you did for offices. So if I look at the bottom of that
table it says 125.6 spaces. That to me rounds up to 126, so
the delta between 126 and 121 is five, which would take 2.5
seat reductions, because right now you've got two seats.
Wait a minute. It would take ten seat reductions if you
were taking them all out of restaurants, because you get
two seats for one parking spot.
JOEL PAULSON: It is actually three seats for
every parking space. It's the delta of five parking spaces
versus what's on site versus the 126, five plus three is
15, so that's where the division is seven in this case,
which when the next application comes through, should the
City Council's action go one way or another, then eight
would be potentially required to be removed by the
Commission for that application.
CHARLES EREKSON: Okay, then I have a question,
through the Chair, for the maker of the motion. If I
understand correctly from Ms. Walters, this space has
approximately 4,000 square feet. The pending application of
the one we don't know about, which is a pizza place, has
2,000 square feet. So it would seem to me not to be fair to
that pending applicant to ask for them to have the same
reduction in number of seats of space that is twice the
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size, so I guess I would just ask the maker of the motion,
would it be fairer to proportionalize it? But I don't know.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Well, if you use a
fraction and you simply made the denominator the total of
the two restaurants, and then you said it's four over six
basically, so this restaurant would bear the burden of two -
thirds. I'm a liberal arts major, so maybe my math is
wrong, but assuming that's right, then I guess in following
your line of reasoning, it would be two- thirds of 15 would
be attributable to this restaurant. Would that satisfy your
question?
CHARLES EREKSON: It was just a question of
should we do it that way as opposed to overburden a future
applicant?
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: This whole thing
troubles me, because I'm not trying to penalize this user.
On the other hand, when somebody tells me there are really
only 121 spaces and we're pretending like there are 128,
I'm worried about the homeowners and everybody else. This
is going to go up before the Council, and hopefully between
now and then maybe somebody will come up with a better
idea, but I could not feel that we should approve something
that depends on simply a credit, which I certainly don't
understand.
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But I would adopt your suggestion that we use a
proportion, and as we said before, this is slightly more
than 4,000 square feet; the pizza restaurant is somewhat
more than 2,000. If we took the actual square footage of
both applicants and used that as the denominator and used
this 4,000 -plus feet as the numerator, it would give us the
percentage reduction of the total from the 15 spaces, and
that's what my motion would intend.
ROBERT SCHULTZ: If I may, very quickly. Through
the PD process many times you can grant exceptions:
exceptions to setbacks, exceptions to heights, exceptions
to parking, and in this case that's what they did. They did
an exception to the parking when 128 was required and made
it 121, so there is a credit for that seven that was
granted through the PD.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: And certainly the Town
Council can say that. My only problem is my personal
experience with restaurants, particularly fast turnover
restaurants, is traffic is sometimes worse than you
anticipate. This intersection is certainly not a great one.
I would rather be conservative, and if the Town Council
feels in their wisdom that that's been taken care of,
that's fine, but my recommendation would be the one I've
made.
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VICE CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Talesfore.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: I would support that,
only because we have to remember that this isn't just a
fast turnover, sit down restaurant, but there's takeout
that will be happening here at the same time that will
involve a need for perhaps parking, and it isn't figured
in, so I would rather be conservative.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Erekson.
CHARLES EREKSON: Through the Chair to the Town
Attorney, so given what the PD says, does the Council
without amending the PD have a legal right to impose
different parking limitations than they have already
granted through the PD?
ROBERT SCHULTZ: That's a question I'm going to
have to research a little bit. I'm trying to think of
examples of that. Maybe your PD gave an exception to
height, but then through the Architecture and Site review
you didn't give the exception that they were granted. That
can be done, so I'm looking at the same situation here
where through the PD an exception has been given to the
parking requirement, but now looking at the actual project
have concerns with parking, and can that now be removed?
It's another vested right issue, but I certainly believe to
move it along if the Planning Commission is in agreement
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with Commissioner O'Donnell, then that can be an
recommendation, subject to legal requirements, that the
seating be further reduced to meet the 121 limit.
JOEL PAULSON: The other thing that I would offer
is that generally when we have existing sites we use the
square footage of the space to determine the number of
parking spaces allocated to that site, so doing that math,
it reduces the current application by nine spaces to 56,
and the pending site for the pizza space, reduces that from
30 seats to 26, so there's a nine space reduction for this
application and a four space reduction for the pending
application.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: That's roughly what on
paper I had, although I think (inaudible).
JOEL PAULSON: I think it's we have the 125.6 and
it's the rounding, and so that's where we get the little
bit less and it's actually two spaces less than the 15.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I would accept your
math.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Erekson.
CHARLES EREKSON: I would ask the Vice Chair if
she would be willing to reopen the public portion of the
public hearing so that we could ask the Applicant if it
would have a significant impact on the operations of their
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business if we reduced the seating capacity by about 150,
because my sense is probably they moved forward given what
was in the PD as they worked with Staff with some good
faith assumption that they could do a business plan based
on 65, and now we're telling them they have to do a
business plan based on 55, so I guess I would be interested
in at least as part of the record for them to be able to
respond to that since we didn't have an opportunity to ask
that question earlier.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Yes, I would very much like to
do that, and to make a quick comment prior, because I would
like to support the motion to move this forward.
I have a hard time supporting a motion that
penalizes an applicant based on something that was approved
as a PD. I feel like we're pushing the blame down the road
a little bit on what was a decision that was made prior and
it makes me uncomfortable to place that burden on someone
else.
At this point I'm going to open the public
portion of the hearing and ask the Applicant to please come
back to the podium, and as you are returning, I believe you
have three minutes to speak. Oh, you're just asking
questions. Okay, great.
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HANNAH WALBRIDGE: I do appreciate the
opportunity to speak to this, because it is a significant
burden, especially looking at the overall space and the
design. We spent a lot of time trying to design it so that
it feels good with 65 seats, because even given the square
footage that's less than what a typical operator would put
in a 4,000 square foot space. So to make the math work with
what we're paying with rent and cam and all of that, it's
tight where it is, so that does make me nervous, for the
record.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Do we have any other questions
that we want to present at this time? Commissioner
O'Donnell.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: You can see what we're
wrestling with, and our wrestling may not make any
difference when it gets to the Council, and I intend to ask
our Counsel the question in a minute, but is there any
reduction that notwithstanding the hardship of any
reduction, you could accept? In other words, we've said
nine as I recall, our recommendation as far as
mathematically. You've told us too we did this short
pencil, blah, blah, blab, we can't do it. But is there any
number... I mean for example, if we didn't say nine, we said
four, we said three, we said some number, is there any
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number just so... It's kind of an unfair question, and you
can tell me no, but is there any number that you could live
with?
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: The minimum?
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Well, the best number.
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: I mean we want... It has to work
for everybody; we know that. We also don't want parking to
be an issue, because then it hurts the business as well on
the flip side. I mean maybe if we could come to four.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I appreciate that
answer, because that's a very hard question to ask of you,
and that's a very constructive answer. Thank you.
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: Yeah.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: There are no other questions?
Thank you very much.
HANNAH WALBRIDGE: Thank you.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Now I will reclose the public
portion of the hearing, and Commissioner O'Donnell.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: This is the time to do
this, and I appreciate all this discussion. The question of
because in the original zoning approvals were premised on
the 127 spaces and not 121, there's some question as to
whether we can use 121 and not the 127. I understand that,
and on the other hand we've just had a fairly generous
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I offer of four parking spaces, and clearly that's not nine,
2 but perhaps my motion would then include a reduction of
3 four, not a reduction of nine. I would suggest that when
4
the original approvals were given it did not prevent us
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pike, and whereas the whole project may be entitled to 127,
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I would assume we can parse those out in some way. I think
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9 rather than testing that theory however, we have an offer
to of four, which I would be inclined to accept, and would
11 therefore, with the approval of the seconder, amend my
72 motion to reduce the reduction in parking to four.- Does the
13 seconder concur?
14 CHARLES EREKSON: I'm okay with that.
15 VICE CHAIR BURCH: All right, that's a motion and
16 a second. All in favor?
17 COMMISSIONER KANE: Any discussion?
18 VICE CHAIR BURCH: Okay. Yes.
19
COMMISSIONER KANE: (Inaudible).
20
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Okay, go for it.
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COMMISSIONER KANE: I thought we'd get a motion
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and a second and then have discussion.
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29 COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Michael always says he
(inaudible).
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VICE CHAIR BURCH: He knows his part.
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COMMISSIONER KANE: Commissioner O'Donnell has
stolen my opening speech. I am new to this Commission.
Many, many years ago I served on the Commission and
Commissioner O'Donnell was there many years ago.
I've always had this issue about kids in bars and
alcohol around children, and the reason it's appropriate to
bring up our history, Commissioner O'Donnell and I, is we
had these discussions eight, ten, twelve years ago, and at
that time we were promised an Alcohol Policy. So I'm not
really addressing the motion, but I don't know where else
to get this in on the record.
We need an Alcohol Policy. I have all kinds of
concerns about tipping point and about dominoes, not
Domino's Pizza. I got a list from Town Staff of some 80
restaurants that are in Town, 40 of whom have what we used
to call "B &W," beer and wine, while they're pending the
application for "full booze," is what we used to call it.
You know, I'm seeing that kind of attrition,
erosion again, because if Super Duper Burgers gets the beer
and wine, is the pizza joint far behind? Can they exist
with Cola -Cola while the neighbor has got beer and wine?
And I don't know if the CUP has —it may already have it —that
they're applying for beer and wine. Where do we put Philz?
Does he need Irish whiskey to put in the coffee?
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We need a policy, we need a line, and we need
some understanding as to which way the Town is going to go.
That's not the Planning Commission's job, but it is the job
of anybody to say a clarification would help. The point
about the history lesson is we're working off of an Alcohol
Policy from 2001, I think, Tom. It's the same one we saw a
hundred years ago, and it says, "Whereas we understand it
can jeopardize public safety and we need to balance the
regulations," and then we go to the Town philosophies,
which I mentioned earlier about quality of life and
harmony, and we're still doing the same thing we've been
doing.
So if this is the only opportunity, I have to say
it. As I studied the case, as I made the visit, and as I
looked at the schools, and as I looked at this list and
which way the Town is going, we need guidance as to how... We
need a Town Code, a law, a clarification as to how we apply
an application. We don't legislate, it's quasi - judicial,
but the legislators I think need to after 16 years give us
some clarification on what we're supposed to do with
alcohol, because other vendors need to compete. The pizza
place needs to compete. This place needs to compete with
Chipotle, and so on and on it goes. Where will it end? I
don't know, but I'm frustrated by it and I don't know that
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we need the other 40 restaurants to get in line for their
beer and wine or their full alcohol. Thank you.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Thank you, Mr. Kane.
LAUREL PREVETTI: Vice Chair?
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Yes?
LAUREL PREVETTI: We do have the Staff response
to that for the benefit of the Commission and our listening
public.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Great.
LAUREL PREVETTI: To our knowledge Philz and the
pizza place have no intention of selling alcohol, so they
have not applied for that privilege. If at the time that
they do, they would be going through a similar process with
ultimate action before the Town Council.
The Town Council actually agrees that our 2001
policy is old, and for that reason they set up an ad hoc
committee to deal with both alcohol service and
entertainment. The recommendations of the ad hoc committee
went back to the Council last fall and the Council said
that it was time to codify the policy and not just have it
as a standalone policy. So we are proposing to bring back
those code amendments for Council consideration to make
sure that they agree with the language in a couple of
nonths, and then it would come back to you as the
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recommending body for any code modification, so you will
have an opportunity to address the bigger policy issue that
you're raising tonight. Thank you.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Madam Chair?
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Yes?
COMMISSIONER KANE: To that point then, rather
than come up with the conditions I've been discussing: 21
years old, hours of service, that kind of thing, I have a
conflict that I'd be penalizing the Applicant, and that's
not right. So I'm not going to make any conditions to the
motion, but I do hope that we get some guidance on which
way the Town wants to go so that we can adjudicate an
application rather than try to make up new language. So to
the maker of the motion, I don't have any conditions,
unless someone else does.
VICE CHAIR BURCH: Any additional discussion? All
right, now we'll take a vote. All in favor? Opposed? Thank
you. Okay, I was just told there is no appeal as this is a
recommendation to the Council.
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