08 Attachment 07 - September 9, 2020 Planning Commision Verbatim MinutesLOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 9/9/2020
Item #2, 14225 Walker Street (Market Hall)
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A P P E A R A N C E S:
Los Gatos Planning
Commissioners:
Melanie Hanssen, Chair
Kathryn Janoff, Vice Chair
Mary Badame
Jeffrey Barnett
Kendra Burch
Matthew Hudes
Reza Tavana
Town Manager: Laurel Prevetti
Community Development
Director:
Joel Paulson
Town Attorney: Robert Schultz
Transcribed by: Vicki L. Blandin
(619) 541-3405
ATTACHMENT 7
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P R O C E E D I N G S:
CHAIR HANSSEN: We will move on to Item 2 on the
agenda, which is considering an approval of a request for
modification to existing Architecture and Site Application
S-13-090 to remove underground parking for construction of
a commercial building otherwise known as the Market Hall in
the North 40 Specific Plan Area. This is APN 424-56-017,
Architecture and Site Application is S-20-012, the property
owner/applicant is Summerhill N40, LLC, and for the members
of the audience this item was continued from the last
meeting on August 26, 2020 to allow Commissioners an
opportunity for a site visit and to also allow more time
for public comments.
May I have a show of hands from Commissioners
that have been able to visit the site? Okay, and are there
any disclosures? Commissioner Burch.
COMMISSIONER BURCH: Due to the proximity of my
home to the property I do have to recuse myself from this
item.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Thank you for letting us know,
Commissioner Burch, and then we will see you back for Item
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3. All right, great. Thank you. And then there were no
other disclosures by Commissioners. Okay.
I understand that Ms. Shoopman will be giving the
Staff Report for this item.
JOCELYN SHOOPMAN: Good evening. On August 26th
the Planning Commission continued the proposal to modify
the approved Architecture and Site Application to remove a
below-grade level of the parking garage to its September 9th
meeting. A Desk Item report has been provided to the
Commission this evening that contains additional public
comments that were provided after the publication of the
Staff Report.
This concludes Staff's presentation but we are
available to answer any questions.
CHAIR HANSSEN: This would be a good time to ask
questions because we did end up continuing the hearing from
last time, and Commissioner Hudes has his hand up.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Yes, this is concerning
guidance that we got from the Town Attorney within the last
few hours. Is that guidance confidential or is that
information that the public can know about?
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHULTZ: The public can certainly
know about that and I will try to articulate that to you
and to the public.
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As we all know this project was part of
litigation. The Town Council originally denied this project
and then litigation occurred and the court made the Town go
back and rescind its denial and look at the project under
what's known as the Housing Accountability Act, and what
the court said, and it applies to this modification and it
actually applies to any housing development or mixed-use
project of more than one unit, is that you have to base
your decision under that Housing Accountability Act and you
must base your decision on specific objective General Plan,
Specific Plan, or Zoning Code. You've got to find those
objective standards; that's the only way you can deny a
housing project under state law.
There have been many subjective reasons in the
correspondence that you've received, such as that if they
don't have the garage there will be a parking problem,
we'll be under-parked, it might be needed for future
development, or the applicant promised it therefore they
should have to do it. All of those are subjective reasons
why you would want to deny it and we just don't have the
discretion under state law anymore to deny a project based
on discretion.
The big issue is whether they meet our parking
standards. There is some correspondence that talks about
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the math that they've used and whether they have adequately
described the parking standards and whether they meet our
parking standards. If you determine that there is
insufficient evidence to reach the conclusion that without
the underground parking structures they do not meet our
parking standards, then that's something that you could
deny this project on, but you can't deny it on all of the
other subjective reasons that I mentioned and plus many
others; that simply is not a reasonable basis to deny this
project.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Commissioner Hudes, and then I
also saw Commissioner Badame had her hand up as well.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: That's really helpful. We
get into areas where it isn't always apparent to those of
us who are not attorneys about whether we are looking at
something that is a standard or an objective standard or a
subjective standard. Is it okay with Staff if we ask that
question when we are deliberating or if there's a follow up
question during testimony to find out whether we are
dealing with an objective or not?
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHULTZ: Yes, if you can point to
sections in, like I said, our Zoning Code and Specific Plan
that are objective standards and you don't believe they've
met those objective standards with regard to the
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underground parking, absolutely, you can ask Staff that
question and that's what we're looking for, your guidance.
Although Staff analyzes a project we don't have all the
answers, and if you can come up with objective standards to
either deny or approve this project then certainly we're
going to help you.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Commissioner Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: I'm concerned that I
literally got this information ten minutes ago.
Commissioner Barnett and I have been tied up in a
Conceptual Development Advisory Committee hearing for
almost a couple of hours, so just receiving this
information, which I think is very important in making that
decision. I need time to digest it and research it further.
Is that possible where we could maybe continue this
conversation or the hearing if other Commissioners agree to
it, or we just get a Desk Item and we just deal with it
with the legal advice we get?
CHAIR HANSSEN: It's certainly an option to
continue the… I'll look to Staff for guidance on this but
we've already continued this item one time, so Director
Paulson, do you have a comment on this?
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JOEL PAULSON: As you've mentioned, we've
continued this already one time for some previous concerns
raised by Commissioners. I get a little bit worried that we
are just delaying. There's also the possibility you could
take a 15-20 minute recess. I'm not sure how much research
Commissioner Badame is interested in doing, but maybe she
just hasn't had a chance to read through the email, so
that's another option that we could just take a short
recess so that Planning Commissioner can look through that
item—maybe some other folks haven't had a chance to look at
it either—and then reconvene the meeting, unless the Town
Attorney has other options. Obviously, ultimately decisions
are the Planning Commission's but that's just my input on
that and if the Town Attorney has an additional input.
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHULTZ: I apologize in giving it
to the Planning Commission at the late hour. I assume that
the Planning Commissioners were aware of the Housing
Accountability Act. Like I said, it doesn't apply to this
project, it applies to all housing projects that you must
base your denial on objective standards not subjective
standards; that goes forward for any project.
But certainly what I would suggest is you open up
the testimony and you hear all the testimony. If there is
something that you need further clarification from Staff
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because of the math, parking calculations that you're not
satisfied with the determination that was made by the
applicant or by Staff, that certainly would be a reason to
continue it. It's a single issue in my mind unless you can
come up with other objective standards that are a Specific
Plan or parking regulations. It's really dealing with
whether they meet our parking regulations without the
underground parking structure.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: Okay, thank you. I'll read
through the email as we further our discussion.
CHAIR HANSSEN: So, Commissioner Badame and the
rest of the Commission, I think we should go ahead with the
public portion of the hearing, hear from the applicant, and
then if it turns out that any of you feel that you need
more time to have all the facts we can take a recess or if
absolutely necessary, we'll continue it. And Commissioner
Hudes has his hand up.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Yeah, I'm sorry, I do have
some questions of Staff that would be helpful to know
before hearing from the applicant because it's difficult to
be able to ask intelligent follow up questions if I'm not
sure about how we're evaluating this, and actually why
we're evaluating this as well, so I did have a few
contextual questions for Staff, not about the specifics of
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the proposal but the purview of the Commission and how we
are to evaluate this.
CHAIR HANSSEN: I think that's perfectly
appropriate at this time and this is the best time to do
that before we proceed into the applicant testimony. That
way we can avoid duplicate questioning and so on and so
forth. So, go ahead, and I have some questions as well.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Great. I'm just trying to
understand when I'm relating this back to the Specific Plan
and there are some things that are not clear about what
type of project this is. In the Specific Plan there is a
discussion about mixed-use projects 2.5.10, but there is
also a reference to a residential use for affordable
housing that has a different entry in one of the tables for
the parking requirements. So, are we to evaluate this as a
mixed-use?
JOEL PAULSON: Commissioner Hudes, you said
2.5.1?
COMMISSIONER HUDES: .10.
JOEL PAULSON: Right, so that's maximum
development capacity.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: No, I'm sorry, this is in
the Land Use and Development Standards, page 2-22.
JOEL PAULSON: So, 2.5.10?
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COMMISSIONER HUDES: Yes.
JOEL PAULSON: And where do you see parking
requirements in there?
COMMISSIONER HUDES: The last paragraph on the
left-hand column D says, "Dedicated parking spaces shall be
provided for residents and shall be clearly distinguished
from spaces provided for commercial and/or office use." So,
that falls under 2.5.10. Is this considered a mixed-use
project?
JOEL PAULSON: Yes, this is a mixed-use project
and the parking for the senior affordable housing will be
demarcated and the Applicant can probably provide
additional information on that.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay. The other question I
have is on page 3-21 of the Design Guidelines; there's an
item M. Does that not apply because that's a different type
of housing, or does that apply?
JOEL PAULSON: What page was that on?
COMMISSIONER HUDES: 3-21.
JOEL PAULSON: Okay, 21. Thank you. Twenty-
second. And so you're looking at 3.3.1, Site Planning and
Design? You said letter D?
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COMMISSIONER HUDES: No, I'm on letter M, 3-21 of
the Residential Design Guidelines. Does that not apply to
this project?
JOEL PAULSON: That is more strictly for the
residential specific projects, so that would be most of the
rest of the phase one project.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay. And on page 3-22,
3.3.2 D, it says, "Below grade parking is encouraged with
entries placed at the rear or sides of the structure
whenever possible." Does that not apply because of the word
"encourage"?
JOEL PAULSON: That is not an objective standard
because it says encourage.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay. Those are all the
questions I have now. I have quite a few relating to the
math but I'll hold that until we hear.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Okay. I do have a question for
Staff, and if any other Commissioners do as well I'm happy
to have you raise your hand.
So, Director Paulson, for the benefit of the
Commission as well as the audience, there were tables in
the Staff Report that talked about the parking requirements
and it basically says that even with removing the
underground parking that based on the information in this
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Specific Plan there will be above the parking that's
required that was agreed to in the Specific Plan.
Specifically, I wanted to ask about the two different parts
of it. So, the origin of the decision that got into the
Specific Plan where the senior housing needs basically one
parking space per resident, a half for the resident and a
half for a guest, the origin of that was it's spelled out
in the Specific Plan or some other document?
JOEL PAULSON: Yes, that is in Table 2-4 on page
2-15 of the Specific Plan.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Okay. According to the plan that
was approved and that they are building to, that decision
was already made that that's the amount of parking that was
needed, and I guess when the applicant speaks too we can
find out, but Eden Housing is managing the project and I
don't know if they're going to be available tonight or not,
but they contributed to this thing to determine the amount
of parking that was needed.
JOEL PAULSON: As I recall, yes, they thought
that this would be adequate parking for this type of use.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Okay. And then as far as the
spaces for the commercial application, could you just
explain how that's calculated and how it got into the plan?
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JOEL PAULSON: Sure. Again, page 2-15, 2.5.8
spells out the parking requirements and it in summary says
that the non-residential uses in the Specific Plan Area
shall utilize the downtown requirements for those non-
residential uses, and so generally restaurant, commercial,
retail, personal service, those are one parking space for
every 300 square feet.
CHAIR HANSSEN: And that's what came into the
Staff Report was those numbers that were agreed to in the
Specific Plan that are… And then in the case of commercial
it's similar but maybe not exactly the same. The
methodology for calculating the amount of parking is
similar to what we use elsewhere in town?
JOEL PAULSON: What we use in a downtown
specifically, yes.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Okay. Commissioner Hudes, you had
your hand up.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Yeah, coming back to that,
that's in the same section as the mixed-use parking
requirement, and so when we're looking at the number of
off-street spaces required for a mixed-use there's non-
residential and residential. How does that relate to mixed-
use?
JOEL PAULSON: If you look at Table 2-4.
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COMMISSIONER HUDES: Yes, I'm looking at it.
JOEL PAULSON: So, A is the non-residential use
in a mixed-use building, which we have here, which is the
downtown parking requirements, and then B is residential
uses and the parking requirements are split up between
senior affordable housing units, those have the same
parking requirements, one bedroom units, and units that
have two bedrooms or more; those are the parking
requirements for a mixed-use building.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: I did have one more question
about whether this is the purview of the Planning
Commission. There's a table that basically defines who
makes decisions; it's part of the Implementation Plan, and
so my question is why is this before the Planning
Commission? The discretionary approval summary table on E-
3.
JOEL PAULSON: Right. That's what lays out the
requirements. Because the modification was a modification
to the architecture and site, Planning Commission is the
deciding body on that.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: But "Reduced parking
requirement for senior/affordable housing," that says
that's approved by the Director of Community Development,
the findings can be made, or I guess the DRC.
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JOEL PAULSON: They're not asking for a reduction
in senior parking.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay, so this is why it's
under the purview of the Planning Commission, because it's
a mixed-use parking reduction?
JOEL PAULSON: They're changing aspects, removing
the one level of underground parking. I felt that that type
of modification you needed to go through the architecture
and site process, and the Planning Commission is the
deciding body for all architecture and site processes.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay, thank you.
CHAIR HANSSEN: And I just had two more quick
questions and then we'll hear from the applicant.
A number of the public comments came in and
talked holistically about parking for the entire North 40
complex. What I wanted to ask Staff was supposing that the
plan numbers were wrong in the Specific Plan and it turns
out we really don't have enough parking, which many people
are convinced of that, are we able to use the holistic
parking requirements of the North 40 phase one project
relative to making this decision on this particular
building?
JOEL PAULSON: I think I follow what you're
saying, but ultimately every project has to provide the
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required parking at a minimum level as required by the
Specific Plan. The phase one project exceeded that number.
Any future project that comes in and goes before the
Planning Commission will have to show that they are
providing adequate parking pursuant to the Specific Plan
for their specific project.
CHAIR HANSSEN: So you're saying as proposed all
of the rest of the phase one plan is meeting the parking
requirements that are set on the Specific Plan as well?
JOEL PAULSON: That's correct.
CHAIR HANSSEN: That's one thing. The final
question I had was supposing that it is the will of the
Town and the Commission on a going forward basis to revisit
the parking standards that are in the phase one, you know,
the current North 40 Specific Plan approved, before we get
a phase two. Is that possible?
JOEL PAULSON: That is possible. It would require
a Specific Plan modification but it would not be applicable
retroactive to the phase one project.
CHAIR HANSSEN: All right, that answers my
question. Do any other Commissioners have questions for
Staff before we go to hear from the applicant? Seeing none,
we will now open the public hearing and first give the
applicant an opportunity to address the Commission for up
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to five minutes, and I thought I saw in the attendees list
we do have someone from Summerhill Homes that will be
speaking.
JOEL PAULSON: I would ask that whoever is going
to represent Summerhill Homes please raise your hands, and
it looks like Mr. Keeney, so I will allow him to talk.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Okay, Mr. Keeney.
MICHAEL KEENEY: Thank you. Can you hear me?
CHAIR HANSSEN: We can hear you.
MICHAEL KEENEY: Good evening, Chair Hanssen,
members of the Planning Commission and Staff. My name is
Michael Keeney and I'm the Development Manager for
Summerhill Homes on the North 40 project.
As you've probably observed we are well underway
with the construction of the project. We've started home
construction and we are progressing on off-site
transportation improvements of well over $10 million to
support the project and expand traffic capacity in the area
for the benefit of the Town and future residents.
As currently designed the Market Hall garage has
an excess of 179 parking spaces as determined by the Town's
parking regulations. The excess parking spaces were
included in the original design based upon the previous
developer's strategies related to the potential development
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of phase two. That developer is no longer involved in the
Market Hall development and Summerhill Homes has no
involvement in the potential development of phase two.
There is no obligation in the conditions or Specific Plan
for Market Hall to provide parking for future phases.
Accordingly, we are requesting the elimination of the
basement portion of the garage structure, reducing the
parking spaces in the garage by 127. This would leave a
total of 176, which is 52 in excess of what's required by
the Town parking regulations.
With this modification there will be
significantly more parking than is required and the
proposed modification has several benefits to the project
and the Town of Los Gatos.
The elimination of the basement will result in
reduced construction activity, noise, and dust from a
shorter construction duration. It will result in the
reduction of approximately 1,700 truck trips that would be
required to off-haul the soil for the basement excavation
and approximately 400 concrete trips to build the basement.
The elimination of the basement removes a
potential public safety problem, particularly if it is
rarely used, and the modification is supported by the
Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition and our affordable housing
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partner, Eden Housing, who will own and manage the senior
affordable housing units that will be a part of the
building.
It will also result in reduced operating expenses
for the affordable housing and the commercial uses in
addition to reduced construction costs.
You have received several comments regarding how
the parking was calculated and what the correct
calculations should be, and I can understand that they're a
little tricky, but we have based our calculations on what
the Town is requiring based on the current code. The
parking tables that are included in the A&S Application are
based on what was included in the code at the time and
based on assumptions about the land use.
To date the only building that has submitted for
a building permit is the Market Hall, and we've refined the
design and worked with Staff to determine what the parking
requirement based on the current Zoning Code. These numbers
are reflected in the Market Hall Parking Requirements Table
that we included in our Letter of Justification and are
consistent with what's before you in this proposal.
Jennifer, do you have that Exhibit 2 that I was
going to use later? It might be good to use it now.
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In response to the comments about the parking
tables, we did put together a table that's based on the
Market Hall building permit as proposed and the assumptions
on what the Commercial District would have remaining. So,
this table reflects what's in the square footage
assumptions of the A&S for the remaining commercial pads at
the current code requirements and as you can see, there is
a surplus of parking. The surplus of parking in aggregate
is 45 spaces because the Market Hall has a surplus of 52
but the commercial pads are a little short; that's noted in
the footnote. In total you have a surplus of parking
district-wide of 22-percent with Market Hall having a
surplus of 61-percent.
We would like to thank Staff for moving this
application forward in a timely manner and for your
accurate summary of the project's compliance and exceedance
of the parking required for the building, and we're
available to answer any questions you may have.
I should also add Eden Housing is available, and
some of our other consultants as well, if something comes
up that's more appropriate for them.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Okay, good. So, if Commissioners
have questions for Eden Housing, they're available as well
tonight. At this point do any Commissioners have questions
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for the applicant? I see Commissioner Hudes has his hand
up.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you. I have many
questions but I'm going to wait until after public
testimony because almost all of them were raised by the
public.
I had one question before then though and that is
regarding the progress of the project. Has the project
proceeded with the assumption that the underground parking
will be eliminated?
MICHAEL KEENEY: No, there's nothing that we've
done with construction to date that would be changed by the
decision of the Planning Commission. All of the
infrastructure to serve the building has been under
construction to the extent that it can be and nothing has
been installed that would prevent the structure from being
built in either design.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Do other Commissioners have
questions? Vice Chair Janoff.
VICE CHAIR JANOFF: Yes, thank you. Mr. Kenney,
could you please to the best of your knowledge summarize
the commercial or residential non-designated parking that
is outside of the Market Hall or the commercial parking
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requirements within those vicinities? There are a number of
spaces beyond the Market Hall and the commercial buildings.
Do you have any idea what those would be just so that we
have a general understanding of what parking there might be
in excess of what is being discussed tonight?
MICHAEL KEENEY: The surface parking sort of in
the transition district is approximately 130 stalls. The
individual commercial pads haven't been fully designed and
we're not the applicant for those, but the preliminary
estimates are for 130 stalls both on the private streets
throughout the Commercial District and on surface parking
lots on the commercial pads.
VICE CHAIR JANOFF: So those include the
commercial parking pads that are not associated with Market
Hall?
MICHAEL KEENEY: Correct, and that's shown on the
table that was up there.
VICE CHAIR JANOFF: Thank you.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Before we go to public comments I
did have a question and it's about the senior housing
parking. I would say the standard is defined in the North
40 Specific Plan but we did get many, many, many questions
from the public about how could it be possible that only
one half space for each resident, and one's a half space
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for their guests, would be needed? And then in addition how
would it be placed? So, I was hoping that either Summer
Hill, or if Eden Housing is available, could answer that
question, because the public can make their comments but we
can't respond to them during the meeting, so I was hoping
we could hear from Eden Housing about why they're
comfortable with that number, because people are thinking
they might have teenage kids, they might have multiple
cars, they might have caregivers. Like how would they end
up not using the other parking, or how did that work? So,
is there somebody that could speak to that?
MICHAEL KEENEY: Well, maybe let me give you just
a couple answers and then I'll pass it off, and if there's
need for follow up Eden is available.
There are a total of 50 spaces allocated for the
affordable housing. They're on the third floor of the
parking structure, so 47 of the 50 spaces are on the third
floor of the parking structure and there is a security gate
between the second and third floor, so effectively the
senior affordable project has its own floor of parking
that's in a secure environment, and Eden would have an
onsite apartment manager and onsite coordination with their
tenants to help manage the parking along with everything
else and make sure that there weren't problems with that.
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That's sort of the simple big picture explanation. If you
would like more information and details Dixie from Eden
Housing can probably raise her hand and Joel can allow her
to respond as well?
CHAIR HANSSEN: If that's possible, it would be
great if we could hear from Dixie.
DIXIE LIRA-BAUS: Hi. Good evening,
Commissioners. Can you hear me all very well?
CHAIR HANSSEN: Yes.
DIXIE LIRA-BAUS: Fantastic. Thank you for
allowing the opportunity to just provide comment on this.
Eden Housing is proud to be a partner with Summer
Hill on this project. We own and operate 36 senior
properties amongst our entire portfolio totaling about
2,700 units. Of that, four of those properties are located
in Santa Clara County with over 300 units of senior
housing.
Throughout the history we've parked each of our
senior buildings at a .5 ratio in suburban locations, and
in urban locations we sometimes park those to a lesser
degree, especially if they're adjacent to a transit
oriented stop. We find that in looking at this development
and looking at the needs across our portfolio that parking
at a .5 ratio for the units themselves are more than
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adequate and having visitor parking at a .5 is also
adequate.
What we tend to do when we are looking at all of
our developments is in managing spots when residents come
into the development if they do not have a vehicle they
aren't issued a parking pass to park in there and that has
been able to help us manage parking demands in terms of our
senior facilities. In our history that's just how we've
operated our developments. I'm available to answer any
additional questions you may have.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Commissioner Hudes has a question
for you.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you. It's a little
difficult to understand, but I wanted to ask simply one of
our residents, Dr. Drayer (phonetic), raised the question:
What is that assumption of the transportation needs of the
50-percent of seniors who will have no place to park? In
the assumption that some of the households have more than
one vehicle, will they be taking public transit? Will they
be riding a bicycle? How will they get to the healthcare?
What's the assumption for that group that has no place to
park?
DIXIE LIRA-BAUS: Thank you, Commissioner.
Actually, we don't make those assumptions. We just look
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across our portfolio needs and the historical needs within
our facilities and find that it's been an adequate level of
parking for our senior developments. Of course additional
public transportation mitigates that, and yes, some
families will indeed have more than one vehicle, some will
not have any vehicle. We found that to be quite common,
especially when our seniors are aging in place, meaning
they tend to stay there for very long periods of time. Yes,
sir, did you have a follow up?
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Yes. I appreciate the
averages but we're dealing with a specific here. Is there
specific public transit that you're relying on for this
development to satisfy that requirement?
MICHAEL KEENEY: Dixie, maybe I can help out a
little bit with this one. This is Mike.
DIXIE LIRA-BAUS: Thank you, Mike.
MICHAEL KEENEY: The project has a traffic demand
management plan, which has now been approved, which
includes funding for a Town-wide shuttle bus program or
other transportation measures as the Town deems appropriate
to help reduce traffic, and the TDM plan has an obligation
to provide a transportation coordinator.
So, in addition to the administrative support
that Eden's team provides to their residents, the Market
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Hall structure as a condominium entity in coordination with
the for sale residential side of the project will have a
transportation coordinator who is responsible for providing
outreach to all of the residents in the community to help
assist them with things like carpool coordination,
different kinds of transportation benefits, bicycle,
different ways to reduce trips and provide assistance to
everyone.
The obligation is to achieve a 15-percent
reduction in trips from the project site and it's completed
with annual reporting to the Town, and if compliance isn't
achieved then it's the obligation of the associations and
the transportation coordinator to identify alternate
solutions to achieve that objective.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Okay, thank you. Commissioner
Hudes, you have a follow up question?
COMMISSIONER HUDES: I'm not sure that answered
by question. I was really asking about what specific public
transit is being relied on for this project.
MICHAEL KEENEY: The public transit in the area
is a VTA bus line on Los Gatos Boulevard. It basically
loops up Los Gatos Boulevard and I believe it comes down
Santa Cruz to the VTA station in Campbell.
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COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay. I'm well aware of what
this is. It's extremely limited but thank you.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Thank you for your comments and
there will be an opportunity for Commissioners to ask
additional questions after we take public testimony. If
there are no more questions from Commissioners we will go
ahead and move on to public testimony. Mr. Paulson, it
looks like we have some hands up I can see in the attendees
list.
JOEL PAULSON: We do. Again, for those in the
audience who wish to speak on this item, please use the
raised hand feature. The person at the top of the list
currently is Maria Ristow.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Before I hand over the floor to
Ms. Ristow I do want to remind anyone that's speaking
during the public portion of the meeting that you may
choose to state your name and address for the record or you
may choose to speak anonymously, and honestly it's your
choice, but we do ask that you limit your comments to three
minutes. So, thank you, and go ahead, Ms. Ristow.
MARIA RISTOW: Okay, thank you. Maria Ristow, and
I'm scrambling to try and catch up with this because I had
submitted a letter actually stating that we should retain
the underground parking with the concern that the entire
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North 40, regardless of how it's developed, has been
envisioned as one project under the Specific Plan and
there's no way we're going to go back and dig out under a
parking structure if we don't put the underground parking
in right now.
What's thrown me for a loop is this discussion of
the Housing Accountability Act, and I was trying to rush
through the data from the previous meeting and I really
think there needs to be another look taken at this, because
I've been through this with the North 40 before and the
Housing Accountability Act requires that the residential be
two-thirds to qualify, I believe, which is like 67-percent
or more than 66-percent.
If I go back quickly to Exhibit 6 from the prior
meeting, the total gross residential is listed at 47,811
square feet. The total gross commercial is 28,966, and so
if you do the math, if this parcel by itself is being
looked at, that comes out to 62.27-percent residential. I
don't know, maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is the whole thing
taken, but if we're talking about just this parcel I don't
see how the Housing Accountability Act applies here.
I'm thinking that there are grounds to take
another look at this or take more time looking at it. But I
apologize, I'm like rapidly trying to go back and pour
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through documents while I'm trying to listen to this Zoom
meeting, but anyway, I don't know if that's helpful. I know
you can't answer my questions, but I want to throw those
numbers out there. Thank you.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Thank you, Ms. Ristow, and we do
have the opportunity for any Commissioners to ask questions
of anyone that speaks from the public. Do any Commissioners
wish to ask questions? Vice Chair Janoff.
VICE CHAIR JANOFF: Yes, this is a question for
the Town Attorney. You mentioned in your notes to us that
the Housing Accountability Act does apply, and it sounded
like what you were saying is that it applied as a result of
the court order. That's how I read your guidance. Could you
please comment whether the Housing Accountability Act
actually does or does not apply to this question that we
have before us tonight?
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHULTZ: The 66-percent
requirement actually came in after the project was
approved, so there could very well be an issue raised by
Maria whether this actual project that's in front of you…
If you'll give me a few minutes, I can look at those
changes that were made. There were a couple of changes that
were made after our project at court, one being that
attorney's fees are now mandatory because the developer in
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this case didn't get attorney's fees, so they went to
Sacramento and got that changed. And there were some
changes in regard to the percentage, so I can look at those
as you continue on with public comment and come back to me.
JOEL PAULSON: And through the Chair, I would
just offer that this is one component of the entire phase
one, but they have vested the other portions, which it's
still part of the entire phase one that was originally
approved, so as the Town Attorney is looking through that
information the parking is specific to this portion because
this portion hasn't been vested yet from that perspective,
but I just offer those comments as well.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Thank you very much. All right,
so who's up next, Director Paulson?
JOEL PAULSON: One second. Leanna will be up
next, and so I will allow her to talk.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Okay.
JOEL PAULSON: So Leanna, if you unmute yourself
you'll be able to speak.
LEANNA PALMER: Hello, my name is Leanna Palmer,
and do you need my address?
CHAIR HANSSEN: Only if you choose to submit it.
LEANNA PALMER: Oh, okay. Well, in Los Gatos. I
am calling just to kind of speak informally briefly that
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I'm opposed to eliminating the underground parking, maybe
for the reasons that the Town Attorney says are not good
reasons.
Grosvenor spent a lot of time planning the entire
40 acres and some of those meetings I attended, and the
underground parking was to accommodate some of the parking
that would be required on the other phase two portion, and
by Summer Hill taking this over from Grosvenor I think that
they need to follow through with the plan they took over. I
don't have the numbers to say it's not going to be enough
parking if they eliminate the underground, but I'm just
saying I think it's really needed so that parking doesn't
overflow into the residential neighborhood around it, or
out on the street, and then the Town would have to change
the street construction.
And the other thing is would Summer Hill need to
pay Grosvenor more money or whatever for what they've done
since they're eliminating a whole expensive part of what
they've bought into and now they will, I don't know,
presumably have a greater profit by just ticking off this
thing they don't need to build?
Okay, so that's my not very coherent comment but
I'm just very opposed to letting them off the hook on this
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bait and switch operation. So, thank you for letting me
speak.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Thank you so much for your
comments. It's very much appreciated by everyone on the
Commission. Do any Commissioners have any questions for the
speaker? Commissioner Hudes.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Actually, this is a question
for the Chair or Town Attorney. This is a virtual public
meeting. In a normal public meeting you'd know who is
there, how many people are there. Of course, we don't know
how many will speak but can we get some sense about how
many participants or observers there are tonight?
CHAIR HANSSEN: There are 26 attendees in the
list. I don't know if you can click on Participants at the
bottom but you can see there are panelists and there are
attendees, but there are 26. We don't always know who's
here to speak about which item; we also have two other
items after this. I presume that most people are here to
speak about Item 2.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay, thank you, and I am
able to see it but I want to make sure the public has the
experience of a public hearing.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Okay, yes. And I will also note I
didn't completely carry it out but I believe we got
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approximately 50 letters from members of the public. All
right, so who would be next, Director Paulson?
JOEL PAULSON: Next will be Kendra Burch.
KENDRA BURCH: Hello. I want to thank everybody
for taking the time tonight to look again at this item and
to allow us to speak.
I had a prepared statement to make concerning our
neighborhood, our proximity to the property, then presented
to us as more of an overall project. However, in light of
some of the changes I am going to try off the cuff to make
a few comments.
Unfortunately, knowing that we need to look at
this in a little bit of a different way, not so much as
maintaining the existing approved application, instead
we're taking a look at this through the lens of compliance
with Housing Accountability Act and with court orders. I
think that's left a number of us in the lurch of being able
to create comments.
I was at my kid's Zoom open house for school and
unfortunately I didn't have an opportunity to take a look
at those items to create some probably better statements to
make around that, and because of that I would ask that the
Planning Commission consider continuing this, not only to
allow all of you time to take a look at those documents but
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to allow residents to spend some time looking at them too
and educating ourselves around what that means. I think
that it would be very valuable in allowing us to do that,
simply because then you're going to hear a lot of us that
originally had the same thing to say over and over again,
which was please maintain the existing application. I think
if we had time to review those we could probably have a
more substantial conversation with you. That's all. Thank
you.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Thank you so much for your
comments. Do any Commissioners have any questions for I
guess it's Ms. Burch in this context. All right. Okay,
who's next?
JOEL PAULSON: Thank you, Chair. Next will be Ms.
Dodson.
BARBARA DODSON: Hello. Hi, this is Barbara
Dodson. I do oppose eliminating the underground garage. I
know that Summer Hill's proposal focused on parking just
for the Market Hall, however, the Market Hall parking is
just one element of the parking for the entire Transition
District A, B, and C.
According to sheet A.11 in Summer Hill's proposal
the Town's requirement for parking stalls in this area in
District A, B, and C is 354 stalls. Without the underground
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garage Summer Hill will provide only 330 parking spots for
District A, B, and C. This becomes clear just by looking at
sheet A.11. Under Required Commercial Stalls for the Area
we see 285. Under Provided Commercial Stalls for the Area
we see 261. The bottom line for me is that we can't approve
the Summer Hill proposal because it provides 24 fewer
parking spaces than required by the Town.
I guess I need everyone to look carefully at
sheet A.11 because it shows that they're not providing the
number of spots that are required by the Town, and I would
like to get some explanation for why they think they are.
I'll also point out that one of the senior units
has two bedrooms, so why are there not two parking spots
provided for a two-bedroom unit?
Finally, I do think developers should stick to
their commitments. The original developer committed to
building the underground garage. There was a lot of
discussion about this during the original hearings. The
original developer didn't want to build the garage, the new
developer doesn't want to do it now, but the garage was a
condition of the approval of the project.
I don't see why it is legal for someone to buy
out a project and then say, "Well, there are certain parts
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that I just don't feel like doing," and I would really like
to hear the legal argument for how that can happen.
I also think it's really ridiculous that Mr.
Schultz did not make this information available to the
public. I would have certainly changed my remarks if I had
known that this was information that was necessary, so I
would like you to provide this information in a public-
friendly forum so that we can all take a look at it and
proceed from there. Thank you.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Thank you very much for your
comments, Ms. Dodson. Commissioner Hudes has a question for
you.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you, and thank you for
doing all of the work on the important calculations and
requirements. You pointed out in your letter that there was
a discrepancy between 330 and 331 parking places. Has that
discrepancy been resolved?
BARBARA DODSON: No. I mean that's a discrepancy
in the proposal that Summer Hill has given. I mean, it's in
the material that we're all reading. Sometimes it says 330,
sometimes it says 331. The original number of parking
spaces for A, B, and C was 485, so then when they deducted
176 in one of their tabulations, that's where they came up
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with 331 I think is what happened. So, just in different
places they did different math.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay, thank you. We don't
have the opportunity really to interact with Staff at this
point, but I have your notes. Thank you.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Do any other Commissioners have
questions for the speaker? Again, thank you very much for
all your research and for providing them in writing as
well. Are there other attendees that wish to speak on this
item.
JOEL PAULSON: I see one hand raised but it's
Leanna who has already spoke and is not able to speak
again. I will open it up in case there is a second person
using that computer, but if it's Leanna she will not be
able to speak again, so I will open it up just for that.
Leanna, is there another member of your household that
wishes to speak?
LEANNA PALMER: No.
JOEL PAULSON: Okay, thank you. And with that I
would just again note anyone who wishes to speak on this
item, please use the raised hand feature. I am not seeing
anyone using the raised hand feature, Chair.
CHAIR HANSSEN: All right, so then if there are
no other speakers at this point for this item we will now
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close the public portion of the public hearing and ask if
any Commissioners have questions of Staff. Oh wait, I
apologize. This is the time when we would ask the Applicant
to come back and respond for up to three minutes. I
apologize. So, Summer Hill, if you would like an additional
opportunity to respond to things that were raised during
public comments, this would be the time to do so.
JOEL PAULSON: Thank you, Chair. I've allowed Mr.
Keeney to speak.
MICHAEL KEENEY: Thank you, Commissioners. This
is Mike Keeney with Summer Hill Homes. We appreciate the
comments and participation of the public in this hearing.
We are pleased to be developing this project in the Town of
Los Gatos and believe it will be an asset to the community
for many years to come.
The application is an amendment to an approved
project that we have a building permit for for the Market
Hall structure and we would like to start construction as
soon as possible. We believe strongly that this
modification will result in a more pedestrian- and bike-
friendly development that is consistent with the goals and
spirit of the Specific Plan.
As discussed, this parking was originally to
serve phase two of the North 40. It's inclusion in the
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project is unnecessary and counterproductive. Construction
of the basement would be a waste of financial resources and
would materially increase the operating costs of Market
Hall, thus further jeopardizing the success of this retail
project, and the operating costs of the additional parking
spaces will also have a negative financial impact on the
affordable senior housing project.
You heard from the community that if the basement
is eliminated it will result in a parking overflowing into
the existing neighborhood. Jennifer, do you have the
walking exhibit that we set up that you could put up? We
put together an exhibit to look at some of the surrounding
neighborhoods and the walking distances that someone would
have to travel if they parked there to get to Market Hall,
which will probably pop up here on the screen in a second.
As you can see, it's a 9-15 minute walk from these
neighborhoods to the Market Hall building, and as we
discussed, the Market Hall will have 45 more parking spaces
than it is required to have, so it's just unrealistic to
conclude that customers of Market Hall will be parking ten
minutes away when the parking structure has a surplus of
parking as is.
Good planning, fairness, and common sense support
this request before you. If there was fact-based evidence
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that the elimination of the parking would negatively impact
the surrounding neighborhoods we would not be pursuing this
design amendment.
Summer Hill has built multiple projects in the
Town of Los Gatos over the last 20 years, most recently the
Sorellas project on Prospect Avenue. We are proud of these
projects and our partnership with the Town and community
that has developed with the past project in the North 40.
Our focus has been to create communities that are well
thought out and become positive experiences for the Town
and our future homeowners. This design revision is
consistent with that philosophy and we ask for your
approval to this modification.
We are available to answer any questions you may
have, and in particular I know there are some questions
about the parking calculations in the A&S approval versus
the new code requirements that we've shown, so we're happy
to talk more about that and answer any questions you might
have. Thank you.
CHAIR HANSSEN: And this would be a great time
for any Commissioners to ask Mr. Keeney any additional
questions, including anything that came up during the
public comments. Commissioner Hudes.
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COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you. I have a number
of questions about the math and the requirements for
parking. I also have questions about the agreement, the
phase one/phase two, the bike aspects of it, the safety
aspects, the neighborhood, and community benefit, but I
don't want to totally monopolize this so I'd maybe like to
start with an explanation about the comments and a reaction
to the comments that we got from Ms. Dodson on sheet A.11.
Could you maybe just simply tell me why there is not a
deficit of 24 spaces.
MICHAEL KEENEY: The parking table in A.11 is a
duplication of the Architecture and Site approval parking
table, and Staff could probably help characterize how that
was prepared, but it was prepared at the time of the A&S
approval with assumptions about the land uses that would
likely be there and it was based on the parking
requirements in the code at the time, which was more
specific to specific land uses.
The application that we've submitted is exclusive
to the Market Hall Parcel 27 of the final map, and Parcel
27, the Market Hall, is obligated to meet its parking ratio
per the Specific Plan of one per 300, and that's the number
that's in our Letter of Justification, which is the square
footage that we estimate if the garage was eliminated.
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The commercial space within the garage doesn't
really change with the elimination of the basement. There
are some tweaks to the mechanical rooms and stuff but it
doesn't really affect the leasable square footage, which is
what the parking calculations are based on, so it's a
pretty accurate number for what the building would be if we
completed the redesign to eliminate the basement.
The estimates that I provided in the table that I
put up during my presentation are based on the gross square
footages in the remaining commercial parcels from the
Specific Plan, so that's at one per 300 based on the table
on A.11, and those numbers will change. When an Applicant
comes forward on each of those buildings they'll submit a
Building Permit and they'll have square footage
calculations that have to meet the one per 300 requirement
of the Specific Plan. So it could change a little bit, but
if anything it would likely go down and it would be their
obligation to comply with the obligation to provide their
parking.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: If I could go back maybe to
the beginning of your answer. The requirements, are you
saying that they are based on current code requirements,
not the requirements that were done in the original
application?
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MICHAEL KEENEY: That's correct. We're complying
with the zoning requirement for the parking for the use
we've proposed at one per 300 square feet. The previous
calculation was more complicated.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: And why does the previous
calculation not apply now?
MICHAEL KEENEY: That might be a better question
for Staff, but I believe the Specific Plan references the
Downtown Parking Guidelines and therefore we're following
the Downtown Parking Guidelines.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: But it's your justification
letter; it doesn't rely on Staff.
MICHAEL KEENEY: It relies on the code.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: And it's your obligation to
make the argument about why that code doesn't apply and why
a different code applies?
MICHAEL KEENEY: Well, it's the code that the
building is being permitted under. It's the Zoning Code for
the Specific Plan as it stands when the permit is being
issued.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay. I had another question
on the math. There is reference to 330 or 331 parking
places. What's the correct number?
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MICHAEL KEENEY: The correct number that I would
suggest you concentrate on is the numbers for Market Hall
and the parking requirements in the Letter of
Justification. The parking estimates for the remainder of
the Commercial District are estimates based on the
Architecture and Site approval. I don't know exactly why
there's one spot off. It could be as Ms. Dodson also
pointed out, that the community room in Market Hall has a
slightly different parking requirement and that's because
the square footages are slightly different, so that parking
requirement actually increased by one space because the
community room increased by one space or by a couple of
hundred square feet from the Architecture and Site approval
table.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Again, are you able to
clarify that at this time or do you need to do some
research before clarifying that?
MICHAEL KEENEY: The table that we prepared and
submitted, which was up earlier, is our estimate of the
commercial square footage based on the one per 300 and the
square footage estimates for Buildings A-1, A-2, D-2, and
C. But what those buildings ultimately are permitted at and
what their parking requirement is is to be determined. When
they submit a permit they would comply with the one per 300
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requirement. So the table that is being referenced is a
combination of the revision to Market Hall and the previous
parking requirements based on the land uses intended at the
time the Specific Plan was approved, so there are quite a
few variables that have changed during that time.
(Inaudible) provides one parking space off, no.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay. I had some other
questions, but I don't want to dominate this, so if other
folks would like I'll just hold mine for a few minutes.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Would other Commissioners like to
ask any questions of the Applicant at this point?
Commissioner Barnett.
COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Is it Summer Hill's
position that the only reason for the underground parking
was to accommodate the parking in phase two? If so, what
evidence is there of that?
MICHAEL KEENEY: Well, I think in addition to us
saying it, it's been said by members of the public during
this hearing. I think we've heard that from Staff. I think
that was a known publicly discussed component. I think at
the time it was also a consideration that there might be
more commercial at the site and as the project evolved that
was reduced. But I apologize, I wasn't the project manager
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at that time, so I don't have all the history from the
actual approval.
COMMISSIONER BARNETT: So, is it fair to say that
you may or may not know whether… Summer Hill's position is
that there is an excess parking in the underground garage
because it's… Let me start over. Is it Summer Hill's
position then that the underground parking is not necessary
to accommodate the retail and senior housing and the
community room?
MICHAEL KEENEY: Yeah, our position is that the
Market Hall building is over-parked with this revision by
approximately 60-percent and that that's more than adequate
for the uses that are proposed, and that it provides a
surplus for the adjacent commercial uses as they develop,
and that when and if phase two develops they would
obviously have to meet all the Specific Plan requirements
to move forward with their project and provide the parking
that's required for the Specific Plan just like we do.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Does that answer your question,
Commissioner Barnett?
COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Yes, it did. Thank you.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Before I go back to Commissioner
Hudes I wanted to follow up on where the conversation was
going with Commissioner Barnett. If I heard you correctly,
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the way this process works is when you submit the
Architecture and Site Application, or when you did submit
the original Architecture and Site for the entire phase one
project, you had an estimate on how much commercial space
there would be and you said that has evolved over time, and
then you said it went down. So, how much less commercial
space than was proposed with the A&S are we going to have
now than we thought we were having?
MICHAEL KEENEY: For the Market Hall?
CHAIR HANSSEN: No, for the entire phase one,
because we were talking about the difference of what Ms.
Dodson was presenting, which was all the commercial parking
requirements for the phase one application versus… And this
hearing is only about the Market Hall, but you talked about
the process overall when you submitted an Architecture and
Site that it's based on estimated, and I thought you said
when you were talking to Commissioner Barnett that there
actually is less commercial space overall than was
originally intended and that we won't really know the
answer for sure about how much parking is needed until
those commercial developers come in and build out those
pads and so on and so forth. So, did I get that right?
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MICHAEL KEENEY: No, I didn't mean to say that
the total square footage of the commercial would be
reduced. What I wanted to represent was that then…
The table that I put up during my presentation
that had the parking estimate that we put together for the
entire Commercial District—which is Exhibit 2 if Jennifer
wants to put it up—and that square footage number which is
shown in the table is approximately the gross square
footage number from the Architecture and Site approval.
So, the distinction is that when the commercial
sites are actually worked out for Building Permits, that
square footage, some of it gets netted out for corridors
and backup house space that isn't leasable square footage,
so what I was trying to say was that the commercial
estimate that I'm including here is a conservative estimate
and that likely the square footage would be slightly lower.
Not the leasable square footage but the square footage the
parking calculation was based on.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Because of stuff that's not
needed for the actual commercial use?
MICHAEL KEENEY: Correct.
CHAIR HANSSEN: It's sort of support stuff.
MICHAEL KEENEY: And that's definitely shown in
the A&S table, it's just that it's a really complicated
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table and I didn't think we'd want to go through that level
of detail.
CHAIR HANSSEN: But to close this out, so I think
I understand. I didn't hear you correctly that there's
actually less space but what you did say, and I'm asking a
question, is that we are honestly going to know what the…
Other than the Market Hall there's this 39,025 additional
square footage of which there are pads right now and we
aren't really going to know what parking is required for
those commercial pad applications until there is a
developer, is that correct?
MICHAEL KEENEY: That's generally correct, but
the table that we put together is based on sort of a
combination of the A&S site plans and everything else, and
currently there is sufficient… What's programmed there has
the space to be parked there but it may evolve a little as
people work out the details of the design, but they would
have to meet that same requirement, so they would have to
provide… At that square footage the obligation for those
parcels in total would be a 130 parking spaces, and as
currently laid out that appears to be something that can be
accommodated on their current plans.
CHAIR HANSSEN: And it's your belief that you
stated already that that's going to be more than adequate
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for any commercial uses that are in addition to the Market
Hall in this phase one?
MICHAEL KEENEY: That's our expectation based on
the development partners that we've talked to for the
Market Hall and the commercial use as a whole.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Okay, I think I'm clear. Are
there any other Commissioners that would like to ask
questions of the Applicant at this point? Commissioner
Hudes, you had your hand up.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Sure. I did have a number of
questions that essentially came from the public and so I'd
like to maybe see if I could get them correct.
Mr. Lord and a number of residents have commented
on the need to hold the developer responsible to what was
agreed following the lawsuit. Was the outcome of the
lawsuit satisfactory to the Applicant, and if changes are
requested now over three years later why didn't the
Applicant make the case for flexibility at the time during
the legal process?
MICHAEL KEENEY: I think that we are pleased with
the results of the project. I think we're very happy to be
building this project in the Town of Los Gatos. We would
have preferred that there wasn't a lawsuit. As I mentioned
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before, we've worked on a number of projects in the Town
and think it's a great place to do business.
As far as why we wouldn't have asked for parking
changes earlier in the process, it takes a while to get a
building of this type designed. It involved us working with
a retail partner. We're mostly a for sale developer and not
a retail developer, but the project was obligated to
provide the affordable housing and we wanted to provide the
affordable housing, and that component of it is essential
to the success of the residential portion of the project.
So, as we worked through the retail design and discussed it
with potential partners we felt that there was an
opportunity to improve the project by reducing the parking
in the basement.
CHAIR HANSSEN: And Commissioner Hudes, I think
it's fine to ask a few more questions.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you. These are
questions that have pretty much come from the public, and I
know it's difficult for the public to speak on these Zoom
sessions, but they're questions that I think are important.
In the justification letter there's a statement
that Grosvenor is no longer involved. How is that relevant
to the parking requirement? How is that fact relevant?
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MICHAEL KEENEY: Well, the original partnership
between Summer Hill and Grosvenor involved Grosvenor
developing the Market Hall and the commercial pads, so when
they chose not to move forward with that we took that on,
but as a part of doing that we also are going to maybe do
it in a slightly different way, and so our change is based
on what we think is the right thing to do for the project
as a whole as opposed to what Grosvenor might have been
trying to accomplish.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: As a follow up, was Summer
Hill compensated for that by Grosvenor already?
MICHAEL KEENEY: We don't usually talk about how
our land transactions are structured. Grosvenor was the
initial applicant and when they chose not to move forward
we had the opportunity to take their position.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: The reason I'm asking is in
the justification letter you are talking about how much
money will be saved by not doing this, and so I think it's
legitimate to ask that question since you're using that for
justification.
MICHAEL KEENEY: I'm not sure I understand.
You're saying that if Grosvenor chose not to move forward
with the project that they should be compensated for it?
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COMMISSIONER HUDES: No, in your letter you
raised a justification point, which is that expenditure
will be saved, is that correct?
MICHAEL KEENEY: Yeah, I think we've mentioned
that in our presentation and in the Letter of Justification
along with a number of other benefits.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: So as a follow-on to that,
has Summer Hill already been compensated for those spaces
that are now going to be removed?
MICHAEL KEENEY: We haven't been paid anything by
anybody because we haven't actually built any component of
the project yet. We have not received any revenue from the
project that I'm aware of.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay, thank you.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Now, do any other Commissioners
have questions for the Applicant?
JOEL PAULSON: And Chair, I just wanted to note
for the record—this is Joel Paulson, Community Development
Director—that Commissioner Burch had to step away.
Obviously she was recused from this, so if she comes back
in before or after we get to the next item I will be adding
her to the group.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Absolutely. Thank you very much.
All right, I think we've asked quite a few questions and we
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did hear public comment and we have quite a few letters, so
I'm going to suggest that we close the public portion of
the public hearing and take time for the Commissioners to
ask additional questions for Staff, comment on the
application, and consider what kind of motion the
Commission would like to make on this matter. So,
Commissioner Hudes has his hand up.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: I did have some other
questions that were raised. I just was sort of taking a
break, but I did have a few more questions of the
Applicant.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Okay, I apologize. I
misunderstood you. All right, so I will reopen the public
portion of the hearing just to allow Commissioner Hudes to
ask a few additional questions.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: This has to do with the
configuration of the parking for the seniors. Ms. Peterson
and Yon Lee Jeow (phonetic) pointed out that there could be
safety implications of the reconfiguration. Could you
discuss that? Is there anything to do with the way that
this parking area will be configured and accessible that's
different than the original underground parking for the
seniors?
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MICHAEL KEENEY: Is this a question for Summer
Hill?
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Yes.
MICHAEL KEENEY: This is Michael Keeney. The Eden
portion of the building is unchanged. Their parking was
programmed for the top floor adjacent to their units and
they never were programmed for any parking in the basement.
The third floor of the parking structure will be part of a
commercial condominium that they will own and it contains
47 of the 50 stalls, and the ramp from the second floor
where the commercial parking is will have a security gate
so that only residents or guests can get access to their
spaces.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: So, the elimination of the
basement parking will have no effect on the security
measure or access that are being provided for the seniors,
is that correct?
MICHAEL KEENEY: No change, that's correct.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Another question. This
relates to the use of the parking in phase two. My
understanding is that the additional parking was meant for
phase 2 which is largely retail, is that correct?
MICHAEL KEENEY: I'm not an expert on the second
phase of the Specific Plan. Staff could maybe comment, but
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I believe it has a higher concentration in retail and
office, yes.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: I believe there are only 16
residential units in phase two, is that correct?
MICHAEL KEENEY: I'm not sure of the answer to
that. I'm sure Staff knows.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Is this change by
eliminating the parking that would be used by phase two
significantly changing the uses in that phase two?
MICHAEL KEENEY: Like I said, I'm not extremely
close to the phase two portion of the program, but the
parking in the garage was… Had Grosvenor developed phase
two in conjunction with phase one, which I think at some
point they intended, then there would have been an
opportunity for the positive, which would both have been
Grosvenor, to negotiate easements with themselves to allow
for shared uses of that parking.
But the Market Hall building is a standalone
structure that does not have any easement or legal
obligation to provide parking to other components of the
project, so I don't think it would change how phase two
would be developed; it would be developed in compliance
with the Specific Plan and it would have the parking that's
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required based on the uses that were proposed consistent
with what's allowed by the Specific Plan.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay, thank you. That raises
questions for Staff that I'll ask later. Thanks.
CHAIR HANSSEN: And Vice Chair Janoff had her
hand up.
VICE CHAIR JANOFF: Thank you. I just want to be
perfectly clear, we're talking about phase one and phase
two as though they are now still connected in concept, and
Mr. Keeney, if you could please restate, which I think
you've done several times, that although Grosvenor had a
plan for developing phase one and phase two, the current
situation is that Grosvenor is no longer a developer for
the North 40 in any capacity and Summer Hill's interest is
only in phase one?
MICHAEL KEENEY: That's correct, but there are
some things that as the developer of phase one we have done
to help provide future infrastructure for phase two, so
there are connections for storm lines, water lines, future
road connections are all consistent with the Specific Plan
to allow phase two to develop per the Specific Plan, but it
would be for the phase two developer to connect to those
facilities and their project would have to meet the
requirement of the Specific Plan just like phase one did.
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We're trying to provide as much infrastructure for them to
build on top of ours as possible, but not necessarily
something for their benefit and not for ours.
VICE CHAIR JANOFF: Okay, so just to further
clarify, when we're talking about requirements for parking,
residential or commercial, the current scope is only for
phase one. You may have developed infrastructure that
supports whatever happens in phase two, but currently the
Summer Hill interest in terms of above-ground square
footage that would have a parking requirement, we're only
talking about phase one, is that correct?
MICHAEL KEENEY: Yes, in regard to the structure.
When it comes to something like the size of the storm
drains so it can handle the runoff from their property,
we've accommodated that.
VICE CHAIR JANOFF: Okay, so I'm not talking
about storm drains.
MICHAEL KEENEY: (Inaudible).
VICE CHAIR JANOFF: Excuse me. Storm drains don't
require parking. I'm only talking about what does require
parking and I think I'm clear that any connection to phase
two above-ground buildout that would have an interest in
borrowing parking or counting parking from phase two,
that's no longer what we have before us. We are only
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working on phase one above-ground parking requirements,
which is the Summer Hill scope, is that correct?
MICHAEL KEENEY: Yes.
VICE CHAIR JANOFF: Okay, thank you.
CHAIR HANSSEN: I think that's clear. Thank you
for your question. All right, so Commissioner Hudes, did
you want to ask any more questions of the Applicant or do
you want to save your questions for Staff, or what?
COMMISSIONER HUDES: I'm just looking at them. I
think the rest of the questions are for Staff at this
point. Maybe I'll just ask one last one and that is that a
number of residents raised the question about neighborhood
impact and community benefit. Not much has been said about
this. There's an aspect of this, the removal of the parking
may cause a problem for the residents in nearby
neighborhoods, it may cause the zoning of other areas to
become an issue. Do you have any statement that you'd like
to make about community benefit? You're asking for this
reduction. Are you offering any additional open space or
reduced density or reduced height? I know that it's not a
requirement, but I'm asking this because you're asking for
something that does affect the community.
MICHAEL KEENEY: I think there were a number of
community benefits identified at the time the project was
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approved and we are of the opinion that this is a further
community benefit that will improve the quality of the
project and to encourage the goals of the Specific Plan.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Commissioner Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: To the Applicant, can you
just elaborate on how it would improve the quality of the
project, be a little bit more specific on that?
MICHAEL KEENEY: One of the things that came up
and led us to look into this was the preparation of the
Transportation Demand Management Program, and one of the
programs that was looked at was the fact that providing
additional parking and building has the opportunity to
create more vehicle trips to the structure and discourage
pedestrian and bicycle trips, so reducing unnecessary
parking I think is considered a benefit for transportation-
oriented…a reduction in traffic and a pedestrian- and bike-
friendly project, and that's part of the reason the Silicon
Valley Bicycle Coalition provided a letter of support.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: Thank you.
CHAIR HANSSEN: All right, Commissioner Hudes.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Now that that's been raised
I would be interested to know how much community benefit
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are we going have by reducing the amount of parking? This
induced demand that was stated, how much is that?
MICHAEL KEENEY: I don't have an answer for that.
I'd have to consult with the transportation engineer to try
to identify a percentage. From the consultants I've worked
with there's a general consensus that if there's less
parking available people are more likely to find another
way to get there.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay.
MICHAEL KEENEY: And I guess more importantly, if
there's enough parking to begin with there's not really a
benefit to providing that much more. The project does have
a number of bike corridors through it and around it with
improvements on Los Gatos Boulevard and Lark extending to
the Los Gatos Creek Trail to improve the bicycle
transportation network throughout the region and connects
to regional facilities, and all that was done partly I
believe at the direction of some of the members of the
Planning Commission that were on the Commission at the time
the project was approved. I believe that was something that
was added towards the end and expanded and enhanced because
it was something that the community and the Commission and
the Council identified as a benefit to the community.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you.
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CHAIR HANSSEN: Commissioner Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: I would just like to expand
on your comment that if there's less parking available that
people are going to find another way to get there, but did
you consider that people might give up and not go there
because they can't find parking? Would that not affect the
viability of the project?
MICHAEL KEENEY: I think that would be the case
if you were going below what's required. When you talk to
the Transportation Demand Management people, that's what
they would like. They would like to see even greater
reductions. We're providing 60-percent more parking than is
required. It just seems unnecessary to go above and beyond
that.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Anything else before we close the
public hearing? Commissioner Barnett.
COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Some of the members of the
public were concerned about increased circulation in the
development because of the lack of parking and possibly
raising safety issues. I was wondering if you had any
comment on that?
MICHAEL KEENEY: We are completing over $10
million in improvements in and around the project site on
Los Gatos Boulevard and Lark, which includes improved bike
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corridors, crosswalks, signal improvements, a number of
improvements to help improve pedestrian safety at all of
those significant intersections and bring them up to a
current enhanced standard, so I think the project as a
whole is going to greatly improve the pedestrian safety in
the neighborhood.
COMMISSIONER BARNETT: My question is whether
circulation by cars who are looking for parking might
create itself a problem and even a safety issue?
MICHAEL KEENEY: If we were parked at below the
ratios that are required then that would be a concern of
ours, but since we're 60-percent in excess of what the
Town's code requires we're very comfortable that there is
adequate parking for the uses that we're proposing.
COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Okay, thank you.
CHAIR HANSSEN: All right, so last call for
questions of the Applicant before I close the public
hearing. Going once. All right, so we're going to close the
public portion of the public hearing and now I will ask if
any Commissioners have additional questions to ask of
Staff, wish to make comments on the application, or
introduce a motion for consideration by the Commission?
Right, I will go with Vice Chair Janoff, and then
Commissioner Hudes had his hand up.
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VICE CHAIR JANOFF: This is a question for the
Town Attorney. Did you have an opportunity to check the
applicability of the Housing Accountability Act on what we
have before us?
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHULTZ: I did. The Housing
Accountability Act states, as Ms. Ristow stated, "Mixed-use
developments consisting of residential and non-residential
uses with at least two-thirds of the square footage
designated for residential use." Since this is amendment to
the approved Architecture and Site approval for phase one
Staff and I used the entire phase project to reach the
conclusion that it meets the requirements of the mixed-use
and that the Housing Accountability Act apply. We didn't
look at it from just a market senior housing space project.
If the Planning Commission does not agree with that
conclusion, then it should make the specific findings that
the Housing Accountability Act does not apply.
VICE CHAIR JANOFF: Thank you.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Commissioner Hudes, do you still
have a question?
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Yes, thank you. Coming back
to that, this information that was provided during the
hearing by Council and was provided in a note to us several
hours before was not provided to the public, and so the
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public has struggled with their questions and with framing
that in the context of the Housing Accountability Act, not
that they're all expected to be experts in the Housing
Accountability Act. Wouldn't we normally give the public
some time to react to those criteria that are then being
used in the hearing?
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHULTZ: Since 2015 I've issued
many memos and opinions regarding the Housing
Accountability Act as applied to Town projects. It was not
in this Staff Report; I apologize for that. I can
regurgitate all those Staff Reports and white papers again
if the Planning Commission wants to continue it for that
basis.
CHAIR HANSSEN: I'm going to say something now. A
concern I had in listening to the public hearing—so I'm
making a comment—is that as Commissioner Hudes stated, some
members of the public were struggling with this new
information to them because if I'm going to net out what I
thought I heard from the public was accommodation of two
general areas.
One is that there were some grounds for the fact
that the developments plans that were submitted said they
were going to do this underground parking garage should
mean that they are held to that, but instead that's not
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really an objective standard like the parking requirements
are.
And then there's a whole other category of
comments from the public where there is disbelief about the
parking requirements being adequate for what they perceive
will happen when all those people move in and so on and so
forth.
That being the case, I feel uncomfortable with
there being any possibility whatsoever that the Housing
Accountability Act might possibly not apply, that people
would have more chance to at least consider it and get
comfortable with it and maybe make the comments that they
would have made having that information. That was just a
thought I had going through this thing that made me
uncomfortable, and some of the people that spoke are some
of our most involved community members. I don't know what
other Commissioners think.
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHULTZ: Just as one other
comment, because I've heard a couple of times about an
agreement for the project. There was no agreement for this
project. This went through a normal approval process even
though it was in litigation; we rescinded our denial and
granted approval of the project. That gives the Applicant
on any project to come in and ask for modifications. The
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only way you can prevent that is by actually entering into
an agreement, what's called a development agreement, and we
did not do that in phase one. We're considering that and
hopefully that can happen in phase two, so that if you get
public benefits or you get agreements on stuff that's not
required by Town Code, then you can hold them to that
commitment. But the idea that there was an agreement to do
an underground structure is not a correct statement,
because we do not have any agreement.
The analogy I've used is that they had said they
were going to build a 30' sound wall. Even though the CEQA
documents or the requirements was a 20' sound wall they
could come in and ask for that modification and so long as
they met the CEQA requirements and met the Zoning Code,
then it would be allowed, and that's kind of here is at
least—and I'm not a math expert—but at least if they've met
the requirements of the parking then under the Housing
Accountability Act, and really under any other findings,
the project should be approved.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Okay, so you answered the
question that I wanted to ask earlier, which was because
not everyone in the public understands this process, so
when Summer Hill/Grosvenor submitted the original
Architecture and Site for this project they submitted a
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series of development plans. That's what happens with every
approval we do for Architecture and Site. So when we
approve it we usually say within accordance with the
development plans attached as exhibit blah, blah, blah. So,
I think what you're saying is that even though they submit
those plans it's not a legally binding agreement that
everything in their plan is going to be exactly the way it
was unless we create a development agreement. Did I get
that right?
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHULTZ: Well, it had to go by the
Conditions of Approval unless they come in for a
modification, and that's what they've done.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Right.
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHULTZ: But the comments that
there was an agreement that was reached between the Town
and the developer and they're not upholding that agreement
is not a correct statement. There is no agreement signed by
both parties that this is exactly what's going to be done.
It allows for modifications; even our Specific Plan allows
for modifications to the approvals.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Okay. Thank you very much. All
right, so I'd like hear from other Commissioners about
where we think we are. We know what feedback we've gotten
from the public so far. We have some people from the public
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that asked for more time. I think we're clear on what the
parking requirements are, and so what do my fellow
commissioners think about what we should do as our next
step in terms of a motion? And it's fine to make comments
without making a motion. Vice Chair Janoff.
VICE CHAIR JANOFF: This is not a motion, just a
couple of questions. Question for the Town Attorney. Mr.
Schultz, if we were to agree that the Housing
Accountability Act is not applicable to the matter before
us would it be your opinion—and I'll ask Staff separately—
that there is still no objective criteria that the proposed
change doesn't meet? In other words, would you say that the
project still meets the technical and objective
requirements of the Specific Plan, the General Plan, the
Zoning Code, and the Housing Element? My question is
assuming the Housing Accountability Act isn't applicable
here, are we at the same place in terms of your opinion in
regard to objective standards?
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHULTZ: I got a little bit
confused with your question. If the Housing Accountability
Act does apply…
VICE CHAIR JANOFF: Does not apply.
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHULTZ: If it does not apply,
then you still should be using your standards and criteria
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and it meets its parking regulations. You're still going to
have to come up with findings as to what it does not comply
with. You just can use subjective reasons also, but you're
going to have to have specific reasons and findings.
VICE CHAIR JANOFF: So, my question, I'll ask
Staff. If we didn't take the Housing Accountability Act
into consideration would it be Staff's opinion the project
as proposed still meets all Town criteria?
JOCELYN SHOOPMAN: Staff's opinion would be that
it meets the parking requirements for Town Code and per the
Specific Plan.
JOEL PAULSON: Yes, I concur with that as well.
VICE CHAIR JANOFF: Okay. Back to the question of
the Chair. I think given the late receipt of the statement
from the Town Attorney and the way that it describes the
criteria to be met and what the obligations of the Planning
Commission are, I think it's fair to say that the public
requires the opportunity to look at those words carefully
and follow up on the documents referenced so that we're all
on board. Those of us who have had a little bit more time
to think about where we are and the criteria required for
us to deny the application before us, we may be in a
different position, but I think until everyone is at the
same place with the same knowledge it would be inadvisable
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for us to proceed with a vote tonight to approve or deny
the application, so I would be in favor of a continuance. I
don't like the idea of dragging this out continually but I
think there's just too much of a curveball that came too
late for the public to really understand.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Commissioner Tavana.
COMMISSIONER TAVANA: You know, after hearing
everything tonight I would definitely have to say I am
opposed and I would deny this tonight based on what I've
heard. I feel the burden of responsibility comes on Summer
Hill Homes to present subjective proof as to why they want
to make this change, so I would definitely say I would be
comfortable denying it tonight or continuing based on what
everybody else on the Commission wants to do.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Commissioner Tavana, I'd like to
ask you a question back. What grounds… Because we have to
have… Supposing we'd have findings, what are your thoughts
and your thinking and where your position stood? You know,
what grounds we have for…
COMMISSIONER TAVANA: I guess we don't know
necessarily whether the Housing Accountability Act applies
currently tonight. I haven't got a clear understanding of
whether or not it is applicable and I just feel there's a
sincere lack of good faith in this project. If it was
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approved at 303 original parking spots, why is it okay to
go down to 179? Where is that justification? I haven't seen
that tonight. You know, it could be 124, that's all that is
required by the Town, but I don't necessarily see how we
can go from 303 to 179 with no justification here other
than that Grosvenor is no longer part of the project.
That's kind of where I'm at right now with this.
CHAIR HANSSEN: All right, well, it's in the
Specific Plan, but thank you for sharing that. Okay, so
thank you for your comments. Commissioner Hudes.
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHULTZ: And just to be clear
before, I'm fine with doing a memorandum to the public and
to the Planning Commission if they want to continue it, but
my opinion will be that it has to comply with the Housing
Accountability Act because this is an amendment to phase
one, which is the entire phase one project. That's the way
it has come in and that's the way my analysis will be in
that, so there isn't any… As far as my conclusion, it
applies. Whether you can find objective standards based on
the evidence and the math of doing it, or whether you
haven't been convinced that they've shown how the
calculations project out is an issue for the Planning
Commission to decide.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Okay. Commissioner Hudes.
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COMMISSIONER HUDES: Adding to comments, I would
be in favor of continuing the item if only for the reason
that we owe it to the public because this information that
was provided to us just a few hours before the hearing is
also I think valuable information for the public,
particularly since there's a difference of opinion between
some members of the public and with the very late breaking
information that it would be wise to allow this enough time
for the public to understand that basis and the
implications of making a decision under the Housing
Accountability Act versus not.
I did have three other questions, and if there
were to be a continuance I would wonder whether it would be
appropriate to ask them now or to do that at another time,
so I'm just sort of putting that out there.
CHAIR HANSSEN: It sounds like there's some
momentum for a continuance, although we don't have a motion
at this point, then I would say defer any questions till
then, although I want to ask Staff a question before we
make a motion on continuing or not.
Supposing that it is the will of the Commission
to continue, since I've already closed the public hearing,
one of the reasons we'd be continuing is to allow the
public time to respond and comment on the possibility of
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additional objective standards that we haven't thought of
or applicability of the Housing Accountability Act, and we
do have people in Town that are very thorough and will do
their homework as well. Will we be able to reopen public
comment if we continue?
JOEL PAULSON: I'd look to the Town Attorney. You
always have that option to reopen for additional public
comment at the next hearing even if it's continued. That's
generally something that hasn't happened often unless there
was significant change in the project, but I believe—and
the Town Attorney can confirm—that's up to you and you can
make that determination.
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHULTZ: In this case I would
state that you would want to reopen the public comment
because the reason why you're continuing it is because of
the issue with the Housing Accountability Act and therefore
you'll want to hear from the public as to reasoning behind
that.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Good. That helps a lot.
Commissioner Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: I would just like to
provide my comments. I did recommend a continuance at the
start of the public hearing two hours ago. My position has
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not changed, so I would be in support of a motion to
continue.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Would you like to make that
motion?
COMMISSIONER BADAME: Certainly. I move to
continue Architecture and Site Application S-20-012,
consideration of an approval of a request for modification
to an existing Architecture and Site Application to remove
underground parking for construction of a commercial
building, the Market Hall, in the North 40 Specific Plan
Area. I would look to Staff to determine a date certain.
JOEL PAULSON: September 23rd.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: All right, I'd like to
include that in my motion, the date of September 23rd.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Commissioner Hudes.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: I would second the motion,
and also ask the Town Attorney, Mr. Schultz, if it's
appropriate to make available to the public the information
that you provided to the Planning Commission since they're
going to be provided an opportunity for another public
hearing.
TOWN ATTORNEY SCHULTZ: The analysis will be part
of the Staff Report; it comes out before the next meeting.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay, thank you.
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CHAIR HANSSEN: All right, so we have a motion
and a second. Are there any further comments or discussion
that Commissioners would like to make at this point?
Commissioner Barnett.
COMMISSIONER BARNETT: I suggest that the motion
include the continuance with public hearing as well.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: I would agree to add that
to my motion.
CHAIR HANSSEN: And Commissioner Hudes?
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Yes, I agree.
CHAIR HANSSEN: So the motion as amended. Are
there any other comments or questions that Commissioners
have before we take a roll call vote? Seeing none, I will
do the roll call vote, and please answer yes, no, or
abstain. I'll start with Commissioner Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: Yes.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Commissioner Tavana.
COMMISSIONER TAVANA: Yes.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Commissioner Hudes.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Yes.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Commissioner Barnett.
COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Yes.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Vice Chair Janoff.
VICE CHAIR JANOFF: Yes.
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CHAIR HANSSEN: And I vote yes as well, so it
passes unanimously. Mr. Paulson, are there appeal rights
for this action by the Commission?
JOEL PAULSON: Chair Hanssen, no, there are not
appeal rights because an action has not been taken other
than continuing it to a future public hearing.
CHAIR HANSSEN: Okay. Thank you very much.