13 Attachment 2 - August 14, 2019 Planning Commission Verbatim MinutesLOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 8/14/2019
Item #2, Modifications to the
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A P P E A R A N C E S:
Los Gatos Planning
Commissioners:
Matthew Hudes, Chair
Mary Badame
Kendra Burch
Kathryn Janoff
Tom O'Donnell
Reza Tavana
Town Manager:Laurel Prevetti
Community Development
Director:
Joel Paulson
Town Attorney:Robert Schultz
Transcribed by: Vicki L. Blandin
(619) 541-3405
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ATTACHMENT 2
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P R O C E E D I N G S:
CHAIR HUDES: We now move to the Public Hearings
portion of our agenda and we will consider Item 2, which is
a Town Wide application. The applicant is the Town of Los
Gatos and it's considering modifications to Chapter… This
is all of the Hillside Design Standards and Guidelines, and
so it's modifications to Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter
V, Chapter VI, Chapter VIII, Chapter IX, and Chapter X.
I understand, Ms. Shoopman, that you'll be giving
the Staff Report tonight.
JOCELYN SHOOPMAN: Good evening, Chair and
Commissioners. The item in front of you is consideration of
modifications to Chapters III through VI and VIII through X
of the Hillside Design Standards and Guidelines as
recommended by the Town Council Policy Committee and
forwarded to you for your recommendation to the Council.
The recommendation from the Policy Committee
proposes to modify the deciding body for single-story
additions over 800 square feet or greater than 20-percent
of the existing floor area from the Development Review
Committee to the Community Development Director.
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In addition, to modify the deciding body for
homes over 5,000 square feet that do not exceed the maximum
allowable floor area and are not visible from the Planning
Commission to the Development Review Committee, remove the
requirement that subsequent Architecture and Site
Applications may not be applied for for the same property
for a period of three years following the issuance of an
Occupancy Permit, and to modify language regarding
accessory dwelling units, viewing areas, below-grade square
footage, fences, and entry gates to be consistent with
previous amendments to the Hillside Design Standards and
Guidelines and amendments to the Zoning Ordinance.
This concludes Staff's presentation and we'd be
happy to answer any questions.
CHAIR HUDES: Great. Thank you. Are there
questions? I had a question. This is about process. My
understanding is that by moving the approval from the
Planning Commission to the DRC the approval body is
changing, is that correct?
JOCELYN SHOOPMAN: That's correct.
CHAIR HUDES: So, in terms of streamlining, are
any steps being taken out of the process?
JOCELYN SHOOPMAN: No, no steps are being taken
out of the process. The same departments, which include
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Building, Planning, Fire, and Engineering are all still
reviewing the application and it's still being publicly
noticed.
CHAIR HUDES: Okay. In the interest of
understanding the benefits of streamlining, how often have
we had appeals of this this type of a hillside development
in the last five years or so?
JOCELYN SHOOPMAN: Are you asking if we had any
appeals or how many applications we've processed?
CHAIR HUDES: I guess it's applications.
JOCELYN SHOOPMAN: Okay, so we were able to pull
data from the last three years and we were able to
determine that 13 new hillside homes have been applied for,
seven have been greater than 5,000 square feet, five of
those did go to the Planning Commission and were approved
at greater than 5,000 square feet, and six applications
were approved by the Development Review Committee because
they were less than 5,000 square feet.
CHAIR HUDES: Okay. The other question I had was
about on page 30, the criteria for the Planning Commission
approving a residential project greater than the maximum
that's allowed. Basically it states that, "The Town Council
or Planning Commission may approve a project greater than
the maximum when all of the following criteria apply," and
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I'm focusing in on #8, which says, "A significant below-
grade square footage element is included in the design
unless it conflicts with other standards." I'm a little bit
confused about this one and what this achieves, so could
you explain #8 and can you explain what's achieved by it?
SALLY ZARNOWITZ: I'll take a stab at that, and
then if the Director wants to join in he can, but the one
issue would be how that is written and whether you wanted
to change just the wordsmithing of it a little bit. I guess
the other would be whether that would be required in order
to approve that larger amount or whether that would be
something that would be considered in approving the larger
amount of square footage.
CHAIR HUDES: I was just trying to understand the
intention of it, because the way it's worded it appears
that it would encourage or compel people to add below-grade
square footage when in fact I think from some of the
hearings I've been in the intention is to do a tradeoff
where additional square footage is put underground rather
than outside, and I'm wondering if the way this is worded
it actually doesn't achieve that but encourages additional
square footage to be put below-grade.
SALLY ZARNOWITZ: Yeah, and I think that we can
take that recommendation and look at that language before
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taking this on to Council if that's what the Commission
would like.
JOEL PAULSON: Through the Chair, it's difficult
to know—it was 2004 I think when these were originally
adopted—what the intent was. In looking at it it does seem
a little bit counterintuitive in that you're asking to
exceed the FAR, we want you to put a whole bunch of square
footage underground, which gives you more square footage,
and then we want you to increase it above from a visible
mass perspective.
Now, the one thing that could come into play is
you may have an existing house that has an existing cellar
and you want to add 100 square feet, 500 square feet, so
you already have that cellar element and so you're looking
to request that.
The opposite would be if someone came in and they
had no cellar but they wanted to exceed the FAR. That's
where we would be looking to try to get them to put that
underground, which theoretically then would hopefully bring
them down below the square footage, but if you want any
specific language or ideas on how that should be worded the
other option is that that could be removed if that's of
interest from the Commission.
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CHAIR HUDES: Well, when we get to deliberating
I'll think about maybe some different language, because I
don't know that it's accomplishing what the intention is as
it's worded. Just it strikes me that the wording may not
achieve that.
Are there any questions further of Staff? Okay,
then I will close the applicant's portion, and I have no
cards from the public, so the public portion of the hearing
is closed as well and we'll move into discussion,
deliberations, and perhaps a motion. Any comments from
fellow commissioners on this? Commissioner Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: I would agree with the
Chair's recommendation. I would go along with some type of
change to what he's suggesting. I wouldn't know what that
might be but it seems to me it is counterintuitive there.
CHAIR HUDES: The thought that I had was that if
we're really trying to encourage a tradeoff so that
additional square footage is put underground then maybe we
just state that so that it's encouraged to put any square
footage that would be beyond the FAR to be located
underground if possible. That just seems a little more
straightforward. Commissioner O'Donnell.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: That's not what it says
though. It's not even close, I think, to what it says, so
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if you want to add some new concept I guess that would be
fine but I think your original comment that this really
doesn't make a lot of sense is true, and if I understand
the rejoinder was yeah, it happened a long time ago and
we're just trying to clean it up a little bit, but if you
don't like it you can take it out.
It's never been our attitude that if you put a
basement in that's great because now you put more above. I
remember many discussions where we said you've got this
huge basement, but you haven't reduced the size of the
house at all, and that was the original intent, so this
language, I think, is better gone than there, and your
comment may be a good comment but I don't think it has
anything to do with #8.
CHAIR HUDES: Well, actually, I didn't finish my
thought, but my thought would be that the language that's
in there would be removed and the language that I suggested
would be added to encourage people if they do need to go
beyond the FAR to put it underground.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: So, it would be…
CHAIR HUDES: I wouldn't make it a requirement as
it is today, one of the eight that has to be (inaudible).
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: But there's no
inhibition at the moment preventing them from putting in a
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bigger basement. The thought again here is two things are
happening. One, we're talking about the basement or cellar
area, and two, we're talking about the above ground area.
Your comment, if I understand it correctly, deals only with
the underground comment. In other words, you don't get any
bonus points for putting in a bigger basement, which I
agree with you on, although originally the concept was we
could say to people, "Why are you building such a big house
when you've got a 2,000 square foot subterranean portion of
the house?" and then we'd argue about that, but what you're
suggesting we put in, I’m just not sure why we need that.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: Could we just get a reread?
Because I'm not sure I heard what…
CHAIR HUDES: Okay, so what I'm saying is that I
think #8 may encourage development that we don't want, so
my suggestion, as Commissioner O'Donnell said, would be to
strike #8.
Additionally, my thought was that since the
concept isn't addressed elsewhere that if an applicant
requires more than the allowable floor area ratio, to
consider putting it below grade instead of asking for an
exception to the requirement.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: And I guess all I'm
saying is wouldn't that… We would hope that would occur to
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somebody, because if you stand pat on what you're going to
grant above ground and they have an architect or somebody
who knows what's going on they would tell them, "You can
have a bigger basement."
CHAIR HUDES: Right. So, basically you're saying
it's not necessary to make that a statement?
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: That's what I think,
yeah.
CHAIR HUDES: Right, okay. Commissioner Janoff.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: I agree that it could be
struck from the list of… Because you don't really want to
encourage that as a requirement for approval, but I do
think it makes sense to cover it elsewhere, and what I was
thinking might be… Because what we're talking about is
offsetting above-ground square footage but varying it, not
adding to, so I would just simply say, "A significant
below-grade square footage element is included in
(inaudible) to offset above-ground square footage," and put
that as a separate statement somewhere—I'm not sure where
it would be appropriate—but make it a separate objective
for hillside structures.
CHAIR HUDES: And you're suggesting that it be
removed as one of the criteria for allowing the Commission
to decide whether to go over the FAR?
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COMMISSIONER JANOFF: Yes.
JOEL PAULSON: Through the Chair?
CHAIR HUDES: Yes.
JOEL PAULSON: I guess the only thing that comes
to mind for that is if someone does decide to put that
square footage underground they no long will be exceeding
the FAR. So, we can look at where that language should go
to kind of encourage that rather than going through this
process of exceeding the FAR.
SALLY ZARNOWITZ: And also through the Chair,
there is some language under Bulk and Mass that talks about
excavate or use below-grade rooms to reduce effective bulk,
so it looks like there are some recommendations there.
CHAIR HUDES: What page is that?
SALLY ZARNOWITZ: That is on page 38 of the
Design Guidelines.
CHAIR HUDES: And which one is that? Oh, that's
K? Yeah. Is that sufficient do you think, Commissioner
Janoff?
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: I would say not because it
doesn't specifically address square footage and so this
could be the place where that language is inserted, but I
would say as it reads now we're still missing that concept
of the offset, go below to get the square footage.
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CHAIR HUDES: Commissioner O'Donnell.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I'm not sure it's our
job to tell (inaudible) so what we're saying is you can't
do it that way but you could do it this way. I just don't
know why. If you read it you know that's the case. Do we
have to say come look at this, you can make a bigger house,
here's how you do it? Why do we want to do that?
CHAIR HUDES: Commissioner Janoff.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: I'm relatively new on the
Planning Commission but I have yet to see an application
where we've seen a hillside design that doesn't try to
exceed in every possible square or otherwise corner of the
structure to maximize well beyond what is proposed, so I
think it's reasonable. If the intent of the guideline or
the intent of the Planning Commission or the Town at this
time is to try to minimize the above-ground square footage
it is reasonable to include language that says that.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I don't think your
proposal says that, but I don't see harm in it. To me we're
telling people what the limits are and if we did that, what
we've done each time is somebody comes in with a big
basement and they still want to get, typically, every
square foot they could possibly get, and then somebody—of
us—gets up and says gee whiz, the idea of the basement was
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to take away from the bulk and mass. Nobody pays any
attention to that and typically we approve it.
Now, adding this little thought you have is fine,
nothing wrong with it, but I'm not exactly sure why we want
to do that because we haven't…in my recollection we've said
that every time: If you've got a big basement you don't
need that in the house. I can't tell you statistically how
many we've approved but I think a lot, so if you put it in
we're saying gee whiz, would you please think again about
the basement, and I'm just saying that's nice but anybody
who has appeared before us or read our rules kind of knows
that, but if you want to highlight it there's nothing wrong
with it if you highlight it.
CHAIR HUDES: We're at a point where maybe we
should either entertain a motion with specific language or
a motion to drop #8. I wonder if people have thoughts about
whether we should continue and try to work the language
now. Commissioner O'Donnell.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I think we could divide
that into two parts. I think probably we're all in
agreement that #8 should just be deleted, because the
discussion now is not about that sequence but to put it
someplace else, so I'd like to make a motion just on that
one point, and that motion would be that we strike the
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proposed section or paragraph #8 and then simply change the
numbering and #9 of course would become #8, so that's the
motion.
CHAIR HUDES: Okay. Do we have a second?
Commissioner Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: Second.
CHAIR HUDES: Discussion? Okay, all in favor? It
passes unanimously 6-0. The second thing is is there
specific language? I didn't come prepared with specific
language as you can see, and I don't know whether anyone
else would like to take a try at specific language talking
about the tradeoff. Okay, I think we may have other
opportunities to deal with this in the future, so I think
we can move to further discussion of this item. Are there
other points that people would like to bring up?
Commissioner Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: I would just like to say
that we're just forwarding a recommendation to Town
Council, so it could be that along the way Staff or Council
also has an opportunity to refine some wording on this
particular issue.
CHAIR HUDES: Okay. The other point that I wanted
to raise as part of the recommendation is my concern about
removing the Planning Commission review of applications. As
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I asked the question earlier, I don't think it achieves an
objective of streamlining because there is still the
hearing, there is still a notice, it's just the hearing
shifts from Planning Commission to DRC, and there are
compelling reasons to have certain items heard by a
Planning Commission as compared to Staff, and in my mind
one of the primary objectives that's achieved when you
bring it to a hearing such as a Planning Commission is
visibility and transparency.
It isn't about the power of the Planning
Commission, it's about the visibility that residents have
to what's going on, and yes, they can attend a DRC meeting.
A DRC meeting is typically at 10:00 o'clock on a weekday
and given the number that we've heard of applications that
met the criteria of going to Planning Commission—I believe
it was 13 or so—that to me is limiting visibility to these
things, and frankly, limiting some of the debate and
discussion that goes on.
It's doesn't achieve streamlining really, because
it's still the same step. It's a hearing that's noticed,
it's just a hearing before the Planning Commission that is
being moved to a hearing before the DRC. Commissioner
O'Donnell.
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COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I think that same
comment can be made about every document we're going to
look at tonight. It's clear that somebody would like to
remove the Planning Commission from as much as possible
with the theory being it will be faster if those guys
aren't involved. That may be true, but your comment, I
think, to a Planning Commissioner is persuasive.
I like the concept that the public can
participate, and I do think it's very difficult to show up
at 10:00 or 10:30 in the morning, and when I read the
minutes of what goes on at 10:00 or 10:30 in the morning
almost nobody ever says anything and nobody ever shows up
except the people who are directly involved.
To me it's a fundamental issue. We serve at the
pleasure of the Council and the Council gets to draft the
rules, and if the Council says we'd like you guys to do
very little, they can say that, but this is sort of like
death by a thousand cuts and this whole thing tonight is
about how can we get the Planning Commission out? We're
going to really speed it up because we're going to have in
many cases one person make the designation and no hearing
is required but it can be appealed.
It doesn't bother me that much. Maybe that's
because I'm almost finished here, but that's the whole
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point of tonight, and as I said, I happen to believe the
Planning Commission allows people to get their comments in.
It could be slower, but it isn't slower in the one instance
you're talking about. But some of these we'll look at it
doesn't go to a committee, in fact it takes away from that
committee too and gives to Joel is what it really does. I'm
not sure he's looking for that but he'll be stuck with it,
and I don't know how that helps the public, the theory
being that somehow things are so slow around here that they
have to be speeded up, and I'm sure the Staff can tell me
why things are so slow around here. I haven't observed that
but I'm sure there must be a lot of war stories, and if
those war stories suggest if only the Planning Commission
wasn't involved we wouldn't have these problems, I've never
heard that argument, but it sure would be nice if we did
hear that argument, because that's what this is all about.
CHAIR HUDES: I maybe want to just add one other
point. Having now been involved in the Planning Commission
for almost four years and having been involved in other
Town committees and commissions I realize that we're at a
point in time of a heritage and legacy of people caring
about this town, and yes, things can get changed by the
current council. A policy committee of two people, yes, can
have a big impact, but there are many people over years who
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put a great deal of effort and thought into our Hillside
Design Guidelines and Standards, and the public remembers
that and the public shows up for these hearings often
because they care about what is going on in the hillsides,
and so I am reluctant to make a change easily to the
process that has served the Town well.
I think the Town is really exemplary in the way
we treat the hillsides. We treat things differently than
many other towns, having looked at many ordinances where
they don't distinguish; we do, and there's been a lot of
care and thought put into the process, so for that reason,
again, I would be reluctant to make a change to a process
that served the Town well and doesn't seem to really add
very much to streamlining.
JOCELYN SHOOPMAN: Pardon me. Just to aid in your
discussion of this, there are some differences too in the
Architecture and Site Application either reviewed by the
Planning Commission or the Development Review Committee,
and that's the cost of the application and the length of
time. So, applications that are reviewed by the Development
Review Committee are typically approximately $3,700 less
than being reviewed by the Planning Commission and can take
about two months less time to process when they're reviewed
by the Development Review Committee.
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CHAIR HUDES: Thank you, and just as a follow up,
what is $3,700 less? What is the total that we're talking
about?
JOCELYN SHOOPMAN: The total for an Architecture
and Site Application to be reviewed by our Development
Review Committee is $10,071.03, and by the Planning
Commission it's $13,713.99.
CHAIR HUDES: Thank you. Yes, Commissioner
Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: Okay, so devil's advocate
on the flip side here, if the Town likes revenue why do we
want to reduce our revenue by reducing these associated
costs? Just throwing that out there.
CHAIR HUDES: Okay. Let me go to Commissioner
Janoff.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: Just a clarification from
Staff, please. As I read the modification it's fairly
narrow, it's over 5,000 square feet but still within the
maximum allowable floor area and it's not visible. When you
mentioned that there were, I believe, 13 applications that
came before the Planning Commission, did they meet that
criteria or were they just hillsides over 5,000 square
feet? I mean, I can't think of one that wasn't visible, so
I'm just not sure what that number was.
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SALLY ZARNOWITZ: The 13 applications, this was
just a snapshot in time, that's all of the Architecture and
Site Applications for a new hillside home, so that's just
to say within these three years 13 of those types of
applications came in. Not all of those were over 5,000
square feet; seven of the 13 were actually over 5,000
square feet.
And then in that same period of time we looked at
how many applications for new homes in hillside over 5,000
that the Planning Commission saw, and that was five, and
then how many under did DRC see, and that was six, so
roughly half as they come in are either over or below 5,000
square feet, the 30,000 foot level.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: Okay, and just to clarify,
the Planning Commission would still see applications that
are visible?
JOCELYN SHOOPMAN: Yes, if it was determined to
be a visible home the way the guidelines define it, it
would be reviewed by the Planning Commission.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: And, forgive me, there's no
change to that? There's a change from viewing platform to
viewing area in the associated papers that we have, but no
change to the notion that there's an area from which you
can view these properties?
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JOCELYN SHOOPMAN: No change to that.
CHAIR HUDES: Commissioner O'Donnell.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Okay, so what I've heard
now is in one way it will be more efficient, is it will
save the applicant roughly $3,000, and the other way is it
takes two months longer, sort of minimum it takes two
months longer, so the applicant will benefit by an amount
of money and the time, so I can see how that would be…I
accept that as the case.
I guess the only issue is when you use those
objective standards on a fairly subjective thing, which is
the approval of Architecture and Site and that kind of
thing, it isn't a calculation of numbers that you add up
and there it is, it's when you look at it and you listen to
the public and you decide whether that's what you really
want, so I would argue with the fact that you'll save
$3,000 on some of these applications, and it will shorter.
I guess the real question is are the
distinguishing factors where you're going to save that
enough to make sure that the public gets enough input?
Because as I said before, maybe you have different
experience with the I think it's 10:30 in the morning—it
might be 10:00—whenever I read the minutes there's almost
nobody there and it takes about four minutes before a
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unanimous motion is made and it's approved. So, that's
fine, that's very efficient, but if you weigh that against
the consideration by seven people who have different jobs
to do, is there a tradeoff? Because that's what we're
dealing with, and personally when I went through all of
these things the overarching message I got was the best way
to solve this stuff is to have fewer people involved, and
that kind of makes sense, because they said if we don't
have the Planning Commission involved that ought to speed
things up and save money, and then your other committee if
we get rid of those guys and we have it all decided by
Joel, that's going to save time and save money. That's kind
of where we are, and if that's the case we can have a
fairly short night.
CHAIR HUDES: Well, we are just considering the
first item.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I know, but it's all the
same.
CHAIR HUDES: Personally, I do see some
differences and I in fact don't have issues with some of
the other ones, but this one in particular came really to
my attention and it was just me recalling the hearings that
we've had, the input from the neighbors and from the Town,
and often we have people who come and speak about these who
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are not noticed, because the hillsides are a treasure of
the whole town and so people look at the Planning
Commission agenda and they say, "I think I need to come and
talk about this one," and I think we've had quite a bit of
that. Now, they could do that at the DRC, they could, but
the hearing is a different kind of a hearing, and I am
reluctant to make that change given the investment that the
Town has in the hillsides and the process that I think
served us well.
So, I'm prepared to make a motion on this, unless
folks have other points.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: It's clear that all
we're doing is making a recommendation, right? So, your
comment would go to whether or not we recommend that
approval?
CHAIR HUDES: Yes.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Okay, that's fine.
CHAIR HUDES: Commissioner Janoff.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: I would just ask that the
motion… In making a motion I know the concerns that the
Planning Commission has voiced will be heard by the Town
Council, but I think it's useful to summarize the salient
concerns in a motion.
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CHAIR HUDES: Okay, I'll try, and then if someone
would like to second and help me out, I'd appreciate that
as well.
I move that we forward a recommendation to
approve the changes in Item 2, modifications to Chapters
III, IV, V, VI, VIII, IX, and X as written with two
exceptions: One is to strike on page 30 Item 8, and the
second change is to leave in place the current language
about the approval process for hillside development
applications.
So, that's the heart of the motion and I would
add to that that I have difficulty in finding compelling
evidence that this would make very much of a streamlining
difference, but that it would in fact result in a loss of
visibility and transparency on hillside developments. So,
that's where I'm going to stop. Would anyone like to
comment or second?
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I'll second.
CHAIR HUDES: Okay, Commissioner O'Donnell
seconds. Any further comments? Commissioner Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: I'm in agreement, so I will
be supporting the motion.
CHAIR HUDES: Any other comments?
JOEL PAULSON: Through the Chair?
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CHAIR HUDES: Yes?
JOEL PAULSON: You stated that the changes that
were proposed in Chapter 9 related to Development Review
Committee. There's more than just the 5,000 square foot.
Did you intend to mean all of the changes you don't agree
with or just the homes over 5,000?
CHAIR HUDES: What page are you talking about?
JOEL PAULSON: Pages 66 and 67 have a number of
changes to deciding bodies. The one that you've been
talking about is the homes over 5,000 square feet going to
the Planning Commission, but there a number of other
changes moving from DRC to Building Permit, for instance,
which is the Director of Community Development, so I wanted
to make sure we have the distinction of are you talking
about all of those or just specifically the 5,000 square
foot homes?
CHAIR HUDES: Just specifically the 5,000 square
foot homes.
JOEL PAULSON: Thank you. Commissioner Tavana.
COMMISSIONER TAVANA: I was just going to say I
think you summed it up very nicely and I'll be supporting
the motion.
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CHAIR HUDES: Okay, I'll call the question. All
in favor? Opposed? Passes unanimously 6-0. There's no
appeal, because this is a recommendation, correct?
SALLY ZARNOWITZ: That is correct.