Attachment 06LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 6/28/2017
Item #3, Town Code Amendment
Application A-17-001 Regarding Cellars
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A P P E A R A N C E S:
Los Gatos Planning
Commissioners:
Tom O'Donnell, Chair
D. Michael Kane, Vice Chair
Mary Badame
Melanie Hanssen
Matthew Hudes
Kathryn Janoff
Town Manager: Laurel Prevetti
Community Development
Director:
Joel Paulson
Town Attorney: Robert Schultz
Transcribed by: Vicki L. Blandin
(510) 337-1558
ATTACHMENT 6
LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 6/28/2017
Item #3, Town Code Amendment
Application A-17-001 Regarding Cellars
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P R O C E E D I N G S:
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Now we’re at Item 3, which is
consider amendments to Chapter 29 dealing with cellars,
Town Code Amendment Application A-17-001, and it’s town
wide.
We’ve discussed this previously, and we’re going
to discuss it again tonight. We’ve all had some opportunity
to consider more, we’ve invited more comments, which we’ve
received, so what I propose doing now is going through the
cards I have, and since we don’t have a proponent and an
opponent we’ll just listen to everybody who submitted a
card. The first card I have here is Brad McCurdy. Everybody
will have up to three minutes.
BRAD McCURDY: Understood. Thank you,
Commissioners.
I believe that the letter that 24 of the local
architects, builders, and designers have signed and
submitted should be in your packet. Please correct me if
I’m wrong.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: It’s there.
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BRAD McCURDY: Okay. I think that letter pretty
much sums up the consensus among the local design community
and related professionals, so I really don’t have much more
to add. I believe you’ve heard the comments and read the
comments, so I don’t feel the need to take a full three
minutes, but what I would ask is if there are questions
regarding the letter or the proposals in the letter that I
be given the opportunity to respond to those questions, if
that makes sense.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: I will also say at this point,
because it’s a little different than our normal, if you do
have questions, because we have submitted that writing and
we’re exploring what we should do, and we have the Staff
recommendation. I would encourage you to ask questions of
whomever you want to, but by all means to ask questions. So
are there any questions of the speaker? Yes, go ahead,
Commissioner Hudes.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay, thank you. I’ve gone
through the letter and it has some things I wanted to ask
about.
First of all, on page 3 it talks about the 4’ or
the 3’, and it seems as though the group is offering the
suggestion that a 3’ elevation would reduce some of the
issues that we have with the current policy, but it also
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makes a comment that says there seems to be an issue with
historical homes: “Historical homes, however, would need to
be addressed differently.” Could you explain to me what the
issue is with historical homes?
BRAD McCURDY: Yes, I can explain my
understanding of the issue. My understanding is that back
when that distance above grade was selected that they
looked particularly at, for instance, downtown Victorian
style homes if they have a cellar or basement. They tend to
have windows high in the room, and they tend to have a
larger number of steps up to the front door than one would
see in potentially a current or Craftsman style, for
instance, and that that 48” measurement was determined as
something that would prevent a lot of requests for
exceptions when dealing with old historical, or Victorian
style particularly, homes. My understanding was that’s
where that 4’ came from.
If you look around various communities you can
find different definitions of basement and they’ve selected
different foot or inch measurements above grade, and that
4’ that we have now could be reduced as one way to address
the above grade bulk, and if that were done in concert with
the policy that’s already in place, what it would do is it
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would make more of a day lit basement count, and it would
make less free uncounted square footage.
The concern there would be if that same set of
rules were applied to historic homes with that large number
of steps up to the main floor level, that that could throw
a lot of existing flatland homes out of compliance, make
them sort of existing noncompliant structures, so that was
one that we as a group recognized as we discussed it. We
believed that that was one very simple option, to simply
change that height and make a decision based on a consensus
of what the height would be, to be a lower height rather
than the 4’.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: And are you suggesting that
there be some language about historical homes in addition,
or are you suggesting that we deal with that through the
nonconforming lot issue?
BRAD McCURDY: I think there are three options.
One is the nonconforming lot. One would be to simply say
that on sites with an average slope greater than a certain
percentage number that the reduced height above grade would
apply, and that on lots underneath whatever that percentage
number was that we could maintain the existing policy, and
that was just recognizing that in the presentation both by
Staff and all concerned that there don’t seem to be as many
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concerns about basements and daylighting in that Cellar
Policy in the flat areas of town.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Other questions? Commissioner
Hudes.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: I was just giving a chance,
but I did have two other questions.
With your option 2 on page 3, you’ve left that
completely open with regard to the multiplier. Could you
either maybe explain to me what ranges you were
considering, or why you weren’t able to make a
recommendation on a multiplier?
BRAD McCURDY: Well, I will say first and
foremost that I think that the group of 14 of us that met,
I think what was very clear is we were in consensus about
the items in the letter, but there were a number of
different ways that we’ve all taken to try to actualize the
goals that are stated in all the Town policies and codes,
and so we had different takes on what different numbers
would do to bulk, massing, and above grade visuals in town,
and whether or not those would be fair. And I would say
that we probably achieve consensus as a group about maybe
using a multiplier of 1.2, 1.25; those were the kind of
numbers we were talking about.
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But some of the points that were made that I
think are even more important are that the issue really
does need to be addressed more holistically, because I
don’t personally believe that there is a current problem
with the Basement and Cellar Policy. I don’t know that I
even necessarily agree that there’s a problem with hillside
massing to the extent that projects like that, in my
opinion, should already be coming before Planning
Commission for your judgment for presentation so that you
guys would have the opportunity to deny an application that
proposed something that wasn’t keeping in Town character.
I tend to think of this whole issue as more
subjective and less objective than the proposed policy
change is trying to make it, and we came to the conclusion
really quickly talking, the 14 of us, that it was difficult
in a three-hour meeting to come up with a number that was
vetted, and that’s why we didn’t put a number in the
letter, because we would really like to see some
diagrammatic or at least experiential results of what a
given multiplier would do to the architecture in the
hillsides, and whether it would be successful or not.
One of the reasons that I liked the proposal of
that number though would be if that number were codified
and then wasn’t successful, then it would be a relatively
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simple matter to change that single number rather than
rewriting a whole policy again, if that makes sense.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Just so I understand that
proposal. Would you consider that sort of an option, a
tradeoff that would incentivize more below grade
construction, below grade or not visible area—actually,
that’s what I think I’m looking for—instead of having that
area appear above, and you’re doing it sort of a tradeoff
to encourage that?
BRAD McCURDY: Correct. What we did is we
carefully listened to what was presented by the Town, by
Staff, by concerns raised at the Planning Commission, by
other concerns that we’ve heard from other community
members that had spoken last time, and we looked at what
was really the goal was how to encourage a reduction in
above ground massing? And so a multiplier applied on the
portion of the basement that’s actually day lit would
actually be directly taking square footage that would
otherwise be permitted in above grade, and giving you
credit for the fact that you gave a basement, but you’d
actually be sort of robbing Peter to pay Paul, Peter being
above ground and Paul being below, and that was the idea
that we all agreed would be the best incentive to hide
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square footage and hide massing rather than displaying them
prominently.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you. That’s exactly
what I was trying to understand.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Commissioner Janoff.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: Just to follow up on that
multiplier concept, are you saying that you would take the
perimeter measurement that exceeds the 4’ height and apply
a multiplier rather than a simple calculation of square
footage of the area that is above the 4’ height?
BRAD McCURDY: In our mind there would be a
diagram that’s the same as the diagram currently used by
the design community, applicant, and Staff. One of the
reasons we liked this proposal was we’re all very used to
seeing a diagram of a basement and the points on the
perimeter of the basement shown as to which part of the
basement meets the definition—currently we’re calling that
the cellar—and which part is the day lit portion. We
totally agree that the word “cellar” should go away and be
less confusing, so I’ll refer to it as subgrade basement
that doesn’t count, and day lit basement that does. We all
know that diagram and we would say A would be the
underground portion, B would be the day lit portion, and
that B would be multiplied by this multiplier so that you
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were discouraged from daylighting any more of the basement
than was absolutely necessary to make the home feasible.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: So counting a portion of
the perimeter, not the entire?
BRAD McCURDY: Well, no, you wouldn’t be counting
the perimeter; you’re counting square footage. You’re just
finding the point on the perimeter right where that
definition breaks, and then drawing a line across the
basement with the topography.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: So just to be clear, where
the policy recommends counting the entire floor if there’s
any daylighting above 48”, you’re saying count a portion?
BRAD McCURDY: Correct, and the reason for this
is because of the unintended consequence of the proposal,
potentially meaning that no one has any incentive or desire
to limit the above grade proposed square footage. We’re
trying to reinstate that incentive and make it an
attractive option to use basement in lieu of above grade.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: Great, thank you.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Commissioner Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Just one more follow up
question. If we’re going to put this on a continuum, the
current Cellar Policy right now allows you to exclude from
square footage any portion that’s not actually above grade,
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and then count the part that is above grade if you’re more
than 4’ above grade. The proposed policy that’s on the
table right now would basically count all of that, and what
you’re suggesting with this multiplier is it be somewhere
in the middle. What I wondered is on page 2 you had some
suggestions that kind of went to the whole issue that we’re
all worried about, which is the fact that there isn’t any
reduction in above ground massing and there’s also a huge
cellar, basement, or whatever you call it. So between the
things that you suggested like incentives for upper story
setbacks and blah, blah, blah, this seems like it would be
more numerical and you could count that. Is that what you
were thinking?
BRAD McCURDY: Right. I think the biggest
struggle that we had was in creating an objective written
proposed numerical solution, as opposed to a subjective
review process solution. We all tended to agree that the
subjective review process is probably long-term more
successful, because if you can get the Planning Commission
to agree with the strategy of promoting subgrade and
discouraging above grade mass you can actually achieve that
through subjective means. But this seems to be the best
balance of being able to provide a numerical, quantifiable
solution that an applicant, designer, architect, and Staff
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could more easily understand without what we believe is a
draconian outcome of counting the entire floor.
What we’re particularly worried about is in a
case where you have topography sloping in multiple
directions and you daylight, even accidently, only a small
portion of a wall, that you would then be subjected to the
standard that counted the entire basement as square
footage. We’re really concerned about that, because as
designers we want the recognition that topography doesn’t
behave like a two-dimensional building section that’s being
used to illustrate this, that topography goes all over the
place and can accidently throw an entire basement floor
that’s a true basement into counting as completely as
possible.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Okay, thank you very much,
and we do thank you for your detailed letter that had all
the issues on the table and the suggestions that you had to
help the situation.
BRAD McCURDY: Thank you, I appreciate that.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Commissioner Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: The purpose of a subgrade
basement, or the idea of it, is you don’t see it; it’s
subgrade. But when you have a day lit basement that
coexists with a subgrade basement, the very fact that it’s
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day lit, when you see it lit up it extends all the way back
and the subgrade portion is lit up, so we see it. Do you
have any comments on that?
BRAD McCURDY: Yeah, I do. I understand what
you’re saying. I guess the biggest difference that I would
have with that statement is, yes, but there are certain
sites in town where it is quite literally impossible just
because of the topography for me to successfully hide the
entire basement as a subgrade structure, and I don’t wish
to penalize people who have purchased lots that have
different topography simply because of the topography of
their lot, and I think that the proposal before the
Planning Commission at the moment unfairly penalizes people
that have steeper lots, while people that have lower sloped
lots are relatively unencumbered by a constraint on a
basement that matches the square footage of the footprint
of their home.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Any other questions? I want to
mention—we’ll move on to the next speaker—but the record
should reflect we received two other items today. One was a
letter from Lee Quintana, and one was a letter from Bill
Wagner, and we all have copies and we’ve all had an
opportunity to read it, so that having been said, I’ll call
the next speaker.
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BRAD McCURDY: Thank you very much.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Thank you. I have Jennifer
Kretschmer.
JENNIFER KRETSCHMER: Good evening,
Commissioners, my name is Jennifer Kretschmer; I live at
101 Old Blossom Hill Road. I am also a local architect; I
specialize in historic preservation, restoration, adaptive
reuse, and I help homeowners to stay within A Field Guide
to American Homes, and I try to get my clients to not come
see you.
One of the strategies that I do use with my
clients is to try to look at bulk and mass, look at their
neighborhood. Most of my projects are not hillside, they’re
mostly lowland or with the Town, and a lot of them are also
historic. I try to get them to look at the property as a
whole and their neighborhood as a whole, and so when a
client comes to me and the entire neighborhood is single-
story and they would like to put a two-story home on it, we
have a discussion and we discuss maybe it’s better to do a
one-story home with a below grade basement.
If we were to count all of that floor area, you
do need to consider that in some of the neighborhoods in
Los Gatos our floor area ratios are much lower than most of
the neighboring communities, and when someone purchases a
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lot or an older home at $2 million dollars and wants to
renovate it in a way that it fits with the community, is
updated so that it’s not dilapidated anymore, they want to
have all the strategies available to them so that they can
maximize floor area, comply with the Town, and get the size
of house that they want, and nowadays a lot of the homes
are usually in the 3,000 square foot range. So that’s sort
of the strategy when I work with my clients and what we
talk about.
One of the things that I do want to address in
the issue of the hillsides is when you do see a home on the
side of the hill, and you see the day lit portion of the
basement, you can tell that some of it is below grade and
you can see it. We have very important standards in the
Town of Los Gatos that limits the restriction of height of
the entire structure, so even though there’s something on a
hillside, the height of the entire building is still
limited to that day lit portion and to the top of the roof,
and so we’re not going to end up with a home that’s over
35’ tall on the side of a hillside, and we’re also not
going to have a cascading home down the hillside either.
So those are the main areas that I wanted to
discuss.
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CHAIR O'DONNELL: Are there questions? Thank you
very much. Next card I have is Noel Cross.
NOEL CROSS: Hi, my name is Noel Cross; I’m a
licensed architect and have been so for 30 years. I’ve been
working in Los Gatos for about 20 years.
Leading up to 2002, when this Hillside Ordinance
was written, the Los Gatos Planning Department made a very
good move. They contacted the local AIA and they invited a
number of architects—I was one of them; I think Tom was one
of them—and they asked our help in writing this ordinance.
They gave us a draft ordinance and we looked at it for a
couple of weeks, and we had a big session right here for
four, five, six hours and we helped them write the
ordinance, and I think it’s working perfectly well.
I would like to thank the Planning Commission for
uniting this community of architects. As a group we don’t
get out very much, we don’t hang out very much, we don’t
get together all that much; we’re too busy and we’ve got
families. And when this issue came up it was amazing how
quickly we all just coagulated into a group of people, and
it mainly is because we do this for a living.
We’re probably talking about 300-400 projects
that we’ve taken, and not just in Los Gatos, but in every
hillside community, Los Altos Hills, Saratoga, and we’ve
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seen every manner of ordinance that tries to do exactly
what this one does, which is to control visible mass and
bulk, and we find that the Los Gatos one does one of the
best jobs of doing it. It’s also relatively simple and easy
to work with. Some ordinances, it takes you an hour to
design something and four hours to calculate whether it
works; that’s a really counterproductive sort of thing. One
thing about the Los Gatos ordinance, it’s real clear. You
just draw the line on the contour of the 4’, you count
this, you don’t count that, and it takes you 15 seconds to
figure out if your idea works.
My request is that we take a deep breath and you
guys call on the architects that actually do this for a
living every day, because a lot of the stuff that we fear
is in the land of unintended consequences.
And I think some of the other things that are
bothering us is that 341 Bella Vista is a project that is
near and dear to everybody’s heart here, it’s been through
years and years of work; that is not a solvable project.
Certainly the Hillside Ordinance, this version where you
repeal the FAR exclusion of the below grade stuff isn’t
going to solve it, it’s going to make it worse, and so that
project is not a good place to use as an example and have
this ordinance be the whipping boy for it.
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CHAIR O'DONNELL: I’m sorry; your time is up.
Let’s see if there are any questions. Are there any
questions? Yes, Commissioner Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: I’m reading your letter,
and it says that you don’t agree with the idea of a
multiplier penalty and some of the opinions of your fellow
architects in the group letter.
NOEL CROSS: Yeah, I wasn’t at the meeting where
they talked about that; I just got involved in the last
week. Actually, now that I understand it I think it’s a
pretty good idea. It is a little more complicated, but it
does incentivize putting the stuff below ground, and my
opinion is if you can’t see it, it shouldn’t be penalized.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: All right, so one more
question for you then. Your last page talks about A, B, and
C, about maintaining the concept that below grade square
footage will count toward gross floor area when it does not
meet the criteria, for example, a day lit basement. So are
you in agreement of eliminating the definition of cellar?
NOEL CROSS: Yeah, I don’t have a real strong
opinion on that. I understand they didn’t want to use
basement with… They use cellar; that’s something that’s
below grade. I don’t care. If you want to change that,
that’s not my biggest argument or my biggest passion. You
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can change the words, it doesn’t change the effect of what
we’re actually going to design or not design, be able to
design, or get approved.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: Thank you.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Any other questions? Thank you
very much. The next card I have is Bess Wiersema.
BESS WIERSEMA: Good evening, Commissioners.
Thank you for taking the time at the last meeting to go
ahead and give us the opportunity to meet. I agree with
Noel; it was quite impressive, the flurry that was created
in the background that I don’t think that you guys maybe
know about, but maybe came out in the letter.
I think one thing that’s really important to take
away from that exactly, like what Noel said and Brad
articulated in our open letter, is that there’s clearly an
issue here if we are so polarized as a group as a whole to
say something is wrong, terribly, terribly wrong with what
is on the table.
I believe the issue is actually about bulk and
mass, and not about the Cellar Policy. I do believe that
the Cellar Policy is the scapegoat for bulk and mass.
I also believe that if you can’t see it, it
shouldn’t count.
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I also believe that the current policy is fair,
and we already are penalized in hillside for square footage
and FAR by other means.
I also believe it’s really important to task the
local professionals, just as you did in writing the
Hillside Policy and just as you kind of did in the
background, to work with the Planning Department and you to
actually create a policy that is viable for projects both
current and going forward.
It was interesting in our group session that
there were a lot of concerns that came up about all of our
projects that are on the table or are pending, where they
would have issues with the way the policy is being
proposed, significant issues; issues that potentially
affects certain homeowner’s property rights and certain
ways to be able to build on property.
I also think you guys should really try to
embrace and recognize that you have probably the best tool,
or the tool we all wish we could have at our discretion,
and that is if anything is an exception, if anything is
greater than FAR, if anything is contested by a neighbor,
if anything is considered to be too bulky or massive by the
Planning Department, your own group of professionals, it
automatically comes to you; it doesn’t get approved.
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We all have lots of projects that we do that
don’t come to you. We all try to make sure that we abide by
the policies and we fit within what’s there, and I think
only the exceptions come to you, so I would really
respectfully request you at least take the time to create a
task force, a study group, and make sure that what you’re
doing is not creating a rule for the exception.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Are there questions? Yes,
Commissioner Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Thank you for your
comments. Besides the proposal to count all of the square
footage that would be above 4’, is there anything other
than that that we’re proposing to change about the Cellar
Policy that you’re objecting to?
BESS WIERSEMA: I think we’re objecting to
counting the entire basement. Just use the word basement.
We’re all agreeing we need one word.
I think really we should just simplify it. It’s a
basement, and part of it counts because it’s day lit at a
certain point, and part of it doesn’t. We can talk about
ways to incentivize people to take their FAR or square
footage out of the top and what is visible by potentially
applying a multiplier, but it needs to be determined what
that multiplier is. We kicked that around for a couple of
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hours. What’s the number? I mean we couldn’t come up with a
specific number just even analyzing other local ordinances
and townships.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: It sounds like the answer
to the question is there is nothing besides that particular
change that’s on the table to count all of the square
footage when a portion is visible that’s objectionable?
BESS WIERSEMA: I believe so, but I’m not 100%
sure I’m understanding your question completely. I believe
the current Basement/Cellar Policy is fair and viable and
consistent.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Okay, thank you.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: All right, if there are no more
questions, I’ll call the next card, which is Tom Sloan.
TOM SLOAN: Good evening, Tom Sloan, local
architect, and I’ve been practicing close to 30 years
myself. I want to thank you for hopefully a lively debate
in advance. I hope to see one, and really, it would be a
shocker to have this thing just where we have this square
footage that doesn’t count all of a sudden count. It’s
going to have a blowback; I guarantee it.
The one thing about the Town that is much
different than any other city or jurisdiction that I work
in is they really pride themselves on providing
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accessibility for seniors and the disabled. When you build
on a hillside, we don’t build our floors following the
contour of the hillside, we build our floors level. Some of
that floor area is going to project out just naturally; we
can’t keep stepping the house, stepping, stepping, or we’re
not going to have accessibility.
So if we are building level, are we going to
start counting the crawl space as well, because that
projects out? That needs to be debated tonight. It’s a
slippery slope. And this whole idea of counting things that
you can’t see, we’re going to start regulating the inside
of our homes, things that are hidden from view that have no
impact. Are we going to start regulating the color?
I’m sorry; this is a little absurd. We don’t want
to be regulating the color inside the homes, but that’s
what it almost feels like to myself, and probably speaking
for a few of my colleagues here, is we are regulating
things that we can’t see. We need to really find a way to
control the mass and bulk, and counting underground square
footage is just going to prevent people from building
underground square footage; it’s not going to change what’s
above ground. That’s about really everything I need to say.
Thank you.
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CHAIR O'DONNELL: Just one second. Are there any
questions? Thank you very much. The next card I have is
Nick Williamson.
NICK WILLIAMSON: Good evening, everybody. Nick
Williamson from 148 Maggi Court. Nice to see everybody.
I’d just like to say I’m in support of the
proposed amendments. I think they’re very clear. I also
think they’re very simple and they’d be very simple to
apply, and I think they’ll ultimately make for more
compatible homes. I don’t disagree that it might make it
more difficult to get a bigger floor area, but I think once
the new rule is in place you work with what’s there, so I
think it makes things simpler.
It actually makes the floor area really quite
meaningful. At the moment the floor area, as you can tell,
is a bit of a numbers game. It’s got deductions, it’s got
other bits of non-qualifying cellar, and now we’re talking
about multipliers. It’s a complete numbers game, whereas
this amendment seems to make the FAR exactly what you’d
expect it to be, a measure of the expected size of the
building, because you’re counting all the floor area.
I think one thing, that when you look at the
Town’s intent to hide square footage in lieu or visible
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mass or provide for hidden square footage, you’ve got to
look at it in different ways.
A fully buried floor would have totally hidden
square footage, so therefore it’s satisfying the intent.
You could have a mostly buried one, something 3’
or less, and it’s mostly buried, it’s mostly out of site.
You have what I call a halfway buried if you take
a traditional 8’ ceiling, which is the 48” we’ve got today,
and that’s a bit more visible.
And then suddenly you’ve got the hillside one
where actually you can have more than 4’ visible on an
elevation, but then we’re talking about the area internal
to that space.
I think one of the things that’s really
important, what we’re really talking about, is livable
area. When you look at these different things, a fully
buried is clearly only for storage, mostly buried is still
really only for storage, but halfway you’re starting to get
a lot of light into the building, so really you’re talking
about maximizing livable square footage.
Now, if I look at livable square footage, I
stayed at a hotel recently and it struck me that the rooms
on both the ground floor and the upper levels were exactly
the same: three internal walls and a window outside, and I
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paid the same for all of the floor space inside. I could
have gone up a floor and it would have been exactly the
same price as the lower floor. Set that onto a slope, it’s
exactly the same, it’s the same livable area, and so I
don’t see why you wouldn’t count it all.
You can also look at the rule that we’re debating
around basements and cellars today. It affects hillsides
and gives them an advantage over flat lots, and I don’t see
why you would have that disparity. I think the rule is
very, very simple as proposed.
I do agree that the bulk and mass is a different
issue. I think the properties that we’re talking about in
steep slopes can have bulk and mass issues regardless of
the cellar. They’re just big and bulky and they must not
be; that’s what the law says there. So bulk and mass is an
issue. I quite like the idea of reducing it to 3’ above the
elevation, I think that’s a good suggestion, but I don’t
see any point in cutting the internal space.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: You could wrap up if you had a
little bit to say additional.
NICK WILLIAMSON: Yeah, it’s not and us and them.
I might well want an architect at some point myself, but I
actually think the rule for the Town is nice and clear, I
think it’s nice and simple, and I think it makes the FAR
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what it should be, a measure of the expected size.
Exceptions then come to you.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: All right, thank you.
Commissioner Hudes.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: I’m just curious about one
statement that you made. You said that the proposed rule
would give an advantage to the hillsides, is that correct?
Is that what you said?
NICK WILLIAMSON: I was looking at this, and it
goes back to (inaudible) a repeat on the earlier slides,
but a fully buried basement on either the hillside or in
the Town is fully buried and it’s underground, so no one is
benefiting from extra livable floor area from that, because
it’s all storage area; it’s clearly underground.
When you go to mostly buried it’s pretty much the
same, because you’re talking about limited amounts of
daylight and ventilation going, and so you’re still really
going to use them mostly for storage.
Then when you come to halfway buried, now I’ve
got a lot of light, but they’re both halfway buried, so
they’re both getting the same amount of light, and using
that hotel test that I had they’re both just as livable.
But when you get on the hillside, now what we’re
talking about is the hillside home has the benefit of the
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slope so that it can actually daylight more of an
elevation, but then not count the floor area behind it,
because of the technicality of the slope. The internal
space is below grade, but on the elevation the visible
part, which is what we’re trying to hide, we’re trying to
reduce visible area; the visible area is not reduced.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: My understanding is that the
entire floor, even the part that is not visible, would be
counted under the proposed and would…
NICK WILLIAMSON: Yes. That’s why…
COMMISSIONER HUDES: That’s why I’m having
trouble understanding your suggestion that they would be at
a disadvantage. I’m trying to understand your explanation
for that.
NICK WILLIAMSON: I’m sorry. Yeah, I was
confusing my two points. I’m in favor, because it
eliminates that. At the moment there’s an advantage to a
hillside home to use the slope to claim more livable square
area.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Under the current
guidelines?
NICK WILLIAMSON: The current.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: I understand.
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NICK WILLIAMSON: So you reduce the livable area
by the slope deduction, and then you increase it by the
Cellar Policy, so it kind of is a neutral effect.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Any other questions? Thank you
very much.
NICK WILLIAMSON: Thank you.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: The next card I have is Dr.
Badame.
ANTHONY BADAME: My name is Anthony Badame, and
I’m not an architect, I’m just a resident. But I have a
presentation.
I think we’re all on the same page that the goal
of the Cellar Policy is to reduce the bulk, mass, and scale
by providing hidden square footage in lieu of visible mass,
but this is both a reduction statement and a provision
statement. We’re also, I think, all on the same page that
we want clear, clean language.
The parameters that influence bulk, mass, and
scale are FAR, site, and design, and they’re all
constrained.
FAR is constrained by maximum FAR, and I’d like
you to take special note that the maximum FAR was
established with full knowledge that cellars do not count.
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If you count cellars, then you have to go back and revisit
maximum FAR.
The site. Constrained by the LRDA, foliage, the
visibility; we have our visibility platforms.
The design. We have very comprehensive
residential and hillside guidelines.
Space. Livable or not, may or may not contribute
to the bulk, mass, and scale, so space is not independently
proportional to the bulk, mass, and scale, but it’s the
advocate supposition that livable space is independently
proportional to the bulk, mass, and scale, and that’s just
not true.
The issue at hand is bulk, mass, and scale, not
livable space, so the logical approach—and I’m stealing
from the Williams’ letter, because I kind of like their
programming language and their format—is if the basement
space increases the bulk, mass, and scale, include it in
the FAR. Else, do not include it in the FAR. It’s simple;
the logic test. Remove the space defined by basement. If
the bulk, mass, and scale is unchanged, then FAR is
unaffected. Else, FAR is affected.
So what is our charge? Our charge is to define
the basement appropriately, and I think we should do this
quantitatively, for example, feet above grade, not
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qualitatively, like livable space. My recommendation is
that we form a special committee composed of the residents
like me and others, building professionals, and Town
representatives, to collectively rewrite the Cellar Policy.
I have some suggested language I put in my letter and I can
summarize this in a nutshell.
The first paragraph clearly and cleanly defines
basement. The second and third paragraphs address the
daylight basement; that’s a special case. Now, daylight
basements can be an asset or a liability. Ninety-percent of
the time they are an asset. It is at 10% of the time that
they are a liability, so we need to address those outliers,
the ones that are causing the liability, and how do we do
that? I did it in the second paragraph and I did it through
stories, and I’m running out of time, so I’ll stop there.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Perhaps there is a question
that might help. Are there any questions? Commissioner
Hudes.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: I believe there was
discussion about a study session last time, and you’re
proposing a committee. Do you have an opinion about whether
a study session could accomplish what you’re suggesting
with a special committee?
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ANTHONY BADAME: I don't know the
distinguishment. Either/or. What I’d like is a collective
discussion amongst residents, the building professionals,
the Town representatives, and we all get together and spend
more time on this, because there were a lot of issues,
there were a lot of things were brought up.
Some people believe in the multiplier. To me, as
a resident, it’s very confusing. I think we should make it
very simple. My suggested language is extremely simple;
it’s very easy to read. I’d like to bounce that off the
architects; they may think I’m crazy, maybe not. But I
think we could all come together and get it done right, and
I don’t think it’s done right, right now.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Other questions? Commissioner
Hudes.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: I did have a question about
the language in your sections. One of the concepts that is
in the existing code, and I think was proposed to be
changed, was the term about defining grade, and you’re
suggesting adjacent finished grade. The current code talks
about existing or finished grade; whichever is lower. Do
you have an opinion about that definition of grade?
ANTHONY BADAME: Just make it one grade. You’ve
got to read through this. What grade are we talking about?
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And I’m not an architect, so I just chose one grade, and I
believe I stole from one of the municipalities.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay, thank you.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Other questions? Thank you very
much. The next card I have Louis Lou.
LOUIE LOU: Good evening, my name is Louie Lou;
I’m a local architect. I’ve practiced for actually 35 years
now, so that’s quite a bit. Most of the work that we do is
residential, and I’ve worked quite a bit throughout the
South Bay over these last 35 years. I would say about 25%
of the houses that we do now have basements, so I’m pretty
familiar with a lot of the basement policies throughout the
South Bay.
My first thought on the current policy that Los
Gatos has is that it’s not that far off from all of the
other municipalities that we have. Their definition of a
basement is slightly different. Some municipalities define
that as anywhere from 28” to 48” above grade, and so I
think we’re pretty close.
I think the idea of counting all the floor area,
regardless of whether it’s daylighted or not, is a bad
idea. I think it penalizes you for trying to hide square
footage. I think if the purpose of changing your Basement
Policy is to reduce the mass and bulk, you’re only going to
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encourage people to put more square footage up if you make
them count the area that’s below grade.
I think it was mentioned that this is not solely
a basement policy, but it’s more of a mass and bulk policy,
so I think you also ought to look at other sections of the
code that address the mass and the bulk, for instance,
daylight planes. Other cities have limitations on how much
two-story wall you can have before you have to step it
back, and so I think those are areas that you should look
at as well.
The things that have been mentioned tonight, some
of these things, like percentages. We met for three hours,
and this was the first time that a lot of us had realized
what was going on, and so we were kind of put on the spot,
so I’m not sure that we could easily come to a consensus in
that short period of time.
But I think that the multiplier I’m not totally
in agreement with; I think it’s a penalty. Whenever you
apply penalties to people, they generally don’t want to do
it; they’ll go up. So I think you should look for
incentives rather than penalties to encourage people to
build down rather than up, and some of those were suggested
in the letter there.
I guess my time has run out.
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CHAIR O'DONNELL: Well, you still have until the
read light comes on.
LOUIE LOU: OH, I heard the beep. Six seconds,
okay. Anyway, I’m open for questions.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Commissioner Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: Can you elaborate on the
concept of the daylight plane, because Mr. Cross also had
introduced that in his letter.
LOUIE LOU: The daylight plane the municipalities
have is from a certain property line or setback line your
building can only be a certain height, and then at that
point the farther you move away from the setback line you
can go taller, so it limits the height as you get towards
the edge of the property, and you can have more height as
you go up.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: Would that mean a
multiplier is involved?
LOUIE LOU: No, no, it’s a simple formula. Let’s
say you’re 30’ back from the side yard; you could be 20’
tall. For every foot that you go farther back you could be
another so many inches tall.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: Thank you.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Other questions? Commissioner
Hudes.
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COMMISSIONER HUDES: I think you mentioned that
you describe the current regulations as not so far off from
other communities. What about the proposed policy? Would
you say that that would be inconsistent with other
communities?
LOUIE LOU: Yes, absolutely. To my knowledge, no
other community counts below grade basement area that’s not
visible and has floor area. I think if you did that you
would create a lot of disparity between the homes that
currently have basements that are not counted and ones that
want to put in basements. I think you would create a lot of
nonconforming situations. Imagine if you had a basement
already and you wanted to add or remodel your home. Would
you have to go back and count that area that wasn’t counted
before? I think you would create a lot of those situations,
and I think that’s probably what you want to avoid with any
new basement policy.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Yes, Commissioner Janoff.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: Other than the concept of
daylight planes, to your knowledge do other municipalities
have other means of addressing mass and bulk?
LOUIE LOU: Yeah, I know for example Monte Sereno
has a larger floor area if you go single-story than if you
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go two-story, so if you built a single-story house you
could have 500 square feet more. Other cities have other
things like two-story wall planes; they don’t want to see a
two-story wall plane for more than, say, 15’ of length
before you have to step back or you have to break it up
with the roofline. So those types of ways to change the
appearance of two-story bulk.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: Thank you.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Commissioner Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: Since we’re talking about
other jurisdictions, the City of Saratoga says—and I’m
going to read it—“On hillsides at least 80% of the basement
must be less than or equal to 42” above grade at any point
along the perimeter to not be counted as floor area.” Can
you give me your comments on that?
LOUIE LOU: Yes, what that basically says is if
more than 20% is out of the ground for those 42”, then they
don’t consider it a basement anymore, so then they would
count the whole thing.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: Thank you.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Commissioner Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I basically have the same
question, but let me ask it another way. You don’t consider
that more difficult to comply with than... Because you said
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our current policy was more in line with that, and that
this 80% is I don't know where they came up with the
number, and then there is also the town of Los Altos Hills
where they have the 28” and then they have the 75%, so do
you consider that simple and easy to comply?
LOUIE LOU: Well, I think, yes, it’s easy for us
to understand and to implement. Whether it’s 80% or it’s
75%, I think that needs to be looked at, because I think
our properties in Los Gatos are different than Saratoga. We
have more zones. I think Saratoga has three zones, Los
Altos Hills has one zone where all the sites are kind of
hilly, so I think we need to maybe look at definitions that
are maybe different for each particular zone that we have.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Okay, thank you.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Thank you very much. The next
card I have is Gary Kohlsaat.
GARY KOHLSAAT: Good evening, Gary Kohlsaat,
architect. Been practicing for 28 years in Los Gatos.
I also, like Tom and Noel, was part of the
Hillside Standards draft, redlines and everything. I’ve
probably redlined three or four drafts to make it to what
it is today, and we work with it all the time. I’m not
aware of that many problems that we’ve been facing in the
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Town with houses that comply with the Hillside Development
Standards and Guidelines.
I think that there is the anomaly, the occasional
house that might slip out and stick out and not be designed
well, but in general I think that it’s working very well,
so I’m on record as saying that I don’t want any change
except for to eliminate the two terms cellar and basement
and call it a basement.
Also, I’m not aware of any other jurisdictions
that would count any kind of area that’s below grade,
including Saratoga, and I wanted to clarify what Louie had
said and what Commissioner Badame had asked. This is the
handout from Saratoga. You could see that the bay is 42”,
which is about 30” from the floor instead of our 48”. The
clarification I wanted to make though is this 80/20%. If
80% of the basement is below that number, then the other
20% does not count either, even if it’s daylighted, even if
it’s full exposure, it does not count, so that’s the credit
that Saratoga offers. Otherwise, it’s the standard whether
it means the definition for basement it doesn’t count. If
it meets the definition of exposed, it does count.
I’m also against the modifier, because I don’t
think it’s been truly vetted. We didn’t really have a good
consensus on that. I think here’s an example that we came
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up with today, and we’re just trying to punch holes in all
these rules, because that’s what you should do in study
sessions, so this is our de facto study session.
If this is going to count as 1.2%, for example,
I’m just not going to build that big and I’m going to put
it up here; I’m going to count it at 100% instead of 120%.
Same thing right here. This is an extreme case where it
barely daylights, but their suggestion to count the entire
basement, that’s not going to happen in one of my houses;
I’m going to put it up here.
I also wanted to, if I may, respond to
Commissioner Badame’s questions about the…
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Let me stop you for a second.
You’re supposed to be cut off, but for purposes of
Commissioner Badame’s question, let’s assume it was re-
asked, and you may answer it.
GARY KOHLSAAT: I’d like to just clarify that if
you’re talking about light emanating from a basement as
part of visibility, that’s a whole different animal, and
you could easily build a wall 10-12’ in, and then the rest
of that room in there would not get the natural light, the
lights from inside the house would not be shining outside,
so why would that count? It just doesn’t make any sense at
all.
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CHAIR O'DONNELL: Okay, I think Vice Chair Kane
had a question.
VICE CHAIR KANE: In the second half of your
drawing you’re saying the policy would prohibit building
that basement so I’m going to put it up here.
GARY KOHLSAAT: The policy could count that,
penalize that.
VICE CHAIR KANE: So you wouldn’t do it?
GARY KOHLSAAT: I wouldn’t do it.
VICE CHAIR KANE: You would put it up here?
GARY KOHLSAAT: That’s correct. Or some portion
of that. I’d be more incentivized to put it up above
ground, leading to more bulk and mass possibly.
VICE CHAIR KANE: Well, depending on whether or
not you could. We’ve heard that previously, and it’s in the
letters, and it just struck me as well if I can’t do this
I’ll do that. I don't know, is that a good design
guideline, or is that telling us what you’re going to do if
we do this? I mean it puts us between a rock and a hard
spot. If you could do that in the first place, why wouldn’t
you do that in the first place if it were a superior
design?
GARY KOHLSAAT: Well, part of it is to try to
reduce the bulk and mass, but also trying to be efficient,
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We’re trying to put spaces down there that are mechanical,
wine cellars, maybe a media room that doesn’t need any
windows. Why are we penalizing livable area if it’s not
visible? It just flies into the face of convention.
VICE CHAIR KANE: All right. There are the
microscopic aspects and there are the macro, and I’m
looking at the macro. Not the multipliers, not the 2”. The
macro is why are we here? Because we had a policy that
people on Council and Staff thought wasn’t working. I’ve
been on and off the Planning Commission, I think, since
2002. You and I have had very affable meetings in historic
and otherwise, and we’d come up with a deal.
Law evolves sometimes from abuse, and if I can’t
protect historic districts, if I can’t protect the Town, if
I can’t protect the hillside because policies are being
abused, then that policy is probably going to change, and I
think that’s what’s happened. I ask you, why are we here?
We’re here because the policy that allegedly had holes in
it has been tightened up.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Ask him a question.
VICE CHAIR KANE: What is wrong with protecting
the hillsides, historic districts, and the Town? And if
they weren’t being protected, that’s why we now seem to
have a tighter policy. Life is a bell curve. You and I have
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seen eye to eye, and then there’s the rest of the world,
and where the abuses come in, then you come together. I’ve
never heard so many nice architects tonight. Everybody has
been really nice, but we also know that this is a
contentious platform. It wouldn’t be before us if there
were something allegedly wrong with it.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Vice Chair, again, you can ask
a question, but…
VICE CHAIR KANE: I didn’t know where else to…
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Now it’s a lecture, and I’d
like you to stop it. Okay, are there other questions?
Commissioner Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I understand what
Commissioner Kane was trying to get at. So the question is
this. A lot of times what we’ll see is in the hillsides
there’s a square foot limitation of 6,000 square feet, so
normally what we see is 6,000 square feet above ground, and
then on top of that the cellar and part of it is
daylighted. So if you were going down that path, what would
you do to increase bulk and mass above ground given the
change in the Cellar Policy, because you wouldn’t be able
to put more above ground?
GARY KOHLSAAT: I’m going to go ahead and say
this, because it seems to me and several other people, but
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no one really wants to come out and say it, that there’s a
bias against basements, period, in the hillside. There’s a
bias against excavation in the hillside. That’s kind of
what it seems like from the outside, that if you’re going
to build 6,000 square feet above ground, then you’re going
to have a basement, whether it’s all 6,000 square feet, or
3,000 of a two-story, or whatever. Again, it’s about bulk
and mass, and it’s about visible square footage. In the
flats, if I can build close to my max FAR and then put a
full basement, evidently that’s okay still, and hopefully
it stays that way.
You’re building a larger house, but is it hurting
or not hurting the hillside? I think that’s a bigger,
global question. I don’t believe it is. I think
geologically we’re always down in bedrock, so it actually
stabilizes the hill better to use a basement. A lot of
times we can take a lot of the excavation and use it for
filling smaller terraces, and we do our best to minimize
off hauling, even with the penalty that it costs more for
grading permits to reuse that dirt. We get counted for cut
and for fill, but we always try to do that.
Just trying to understand what the objective is.
Is the objective to reduce bulk and mass, or as
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Commissioner Kane alluded, is the objective to protect the
hillside? I’m not sure they’re mutually exclusive.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I understand your point,
but I was trying to specifically comment on the drawing
that you put up there that said you had moved the square
footage up, and I’m just saying I don’t think that’s really
practical. Maybe not for a design from you, but for many of
the designs we’ve seen it’s already got 6,000 square feet,
and then there wouldn’t be an opportunity to move it
anywhere else. I understand your point about there’s a bias
against a basement and all that, but your specific drawing
up there wouldn’t apply for some of these situations that
we see where they’ve already maxed out the above.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Let me just interrupt for a
second. Obviously if you reached the maximum above ground
you can’t put any more below ground if it counts, and I
think Commissioner Hanssen’s experience is mine. We could,
but it would have been harder. You’re supposed to reduce
bulk and mass, and yet we have approved a number of houses
that were basically maxed, and the basement. Now, we always
had the ability to say no. We weren’t very good at saying
no, and I think in part because we weren’t good at saying
no maybe people are trying to say we’re going to help you
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out, so that’s a little subplot that’s going on too.
Commissioner Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: When you ask what the bias
is in hillsides, would you agree that the more cut that’s
involved to allow for a basement, that involves more
grading, when the goal within the hillsides should be to
minimize grading?
GARY KOHLSAAT: I don’t agree with that
statement.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: Can you elaborate on that?
GARY KOHLSAAT: When you excavate for a basement,
that is called excavation, and it’s not counted as grading,
and you’re just cutting down. You’re either digging a
foundation, crawlspace that’s maybe 4’ of cut from your
floor and to your pad, or you’re cutting down 9’ or 10’, so
yes, you are taking out dirt, but that doesn’t mean you’re
going beyond the footprint of the house, and that’s where
we start getting into grading and site retaining walls.
There is also a limit on how much you can cut
already in the hillside for a house, limits of retaining
wall heights, so we’re already working against very extreme
limits for cut and for fill already, and basements are very
expensive, and so we do them at a cost, but we do them in
order to get that extra square footage.
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Now, many times our properties are three, four,
or five acres, so the 6,000 square foot limit was
essentially designed as one acre, and then they said I
don’t care how big your property is, you still get 6,000
square feet or else you come to the Planning Commission and
ask for an exception, and then we’ve done that before. So
sometimes you’re seeing homes that are maxed out, 6,000
square feet with the big basement, but maybe that’s on a
ten-acre site, so you’re kind of like I’m going to be a
little more lenient with that, and maybe there’s not a lot
of grading, maybe that’s a fairly gentle site but it
happens to be in a hillside zone, but maybe you’re a 10%
slope but you’re just in a hillside zone. I think it’s very
complicated. You have to look at different slopes,
different lot sizes, everything.
In any other city, if Los Altos Hills said I
could build 12,000 square feet, we can build 12,000 square
feet. In Los Gatos it says you may be able to build 6,000
square feet; it’s never a black and white issue. Any other
town: Monte Sereno, Saratoga, Cupertino, Los Altos, Los
Altos Hills, Palo Alto, Woodside, Atherton, they see that
as a black and white.
Now, I’m not saying that we need to change that.
I understand that there are compatibility issues and there
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are other things about what goes into FAR, but we run into
this all the time. I’ve got a 20-acre site.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Let me stop you. Again, I’d
like to keep the questions a little focused. I think your
answer is very, very helpful, but we do have a time limit.
GARY KOHLSAAT: I understand.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: I’m going to say if upon
hearing an answer you want more, ask another question. So
is there another question? Appreciate everything you’ve
said. This is the second time I’ve seen you today. The next
card we have is Jaclyn Greenmyer.
JACLYN GREENMYER: Hi, I’m Jaclyn Greenmyer, and
Gary Kohlsaat is my boss. I’ve been working in the Town for
about 11 years now and I’ve had a chance to work not only
in Los Gatos quite a bit, but as well as a lot of the
surrounding municipalities.
I can’t add a lot, because all these people here
have a lot more experience than I do, but what I do want to
point out that is that all of the local municipalities have
the same similar rule as you guys do, that a portion of the
basement would count; that is part of your definition. And
then there’s another portion of the basement that doesn’t
meet your definition, and that would not count. Every
jurisdiction, every one of them, has a rule that allows for
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hidden basements’ portions to not count; there is not one.
So you would then be creating a situation that is
completely different from any municipality in the South
Bay, as far as I know.
What I would personally probably see is that when
clients are looking for properties and they find out about
the rules about how much square footage they’re allowed,
they will not be building in Los Gatos, they will go
somewhere else. They have the freedom to go build wherever
they want, and then they see what they can get, and they’ll
go somewhere else. That’s just what I think inevitably we
will see.
Again, these are just municipalities. They have
the same exact situation; they just put their line
somewhere else, that’s the only difference. They have a lot
of other little situations where they prevent mass and
bulk, like Louie Lou and some of the other colleagues had
mentioned; they have other stipulations on preventing mass
and bulk. They create an envelope, like the daylight plane;
or they create rules like only a certain percentage of your
square footage is allowed on the first floor versus the
second floor. There are a variety of ways that you can
address these issues, a ton of them.
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I think what I just want to stress is that even
though I’ve only been working here for ten years, I have
had the opportunity to work in both Atherton and Saratoga,
and they have asked for local architects and people that
have worked in the towns to come and help, and help flush
out any unintended consequences of rule changes, and what I
noticed very clearly is that you guys did not.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Thank you. Are there questions?
Thank you very much. I have a number of cards left. Sandy
Decker comes up.
SANDY DECKER: Sandy Decker, 45 Glen Ridge.
Probably the best words said tonight were
“unintended consequences.” As one of the charter members of
the writing committee that put together this policy I have
watched it morph to the same monster two-story home now
designed buried to its shins.
The reason for this policy was to stop the huge
homes that were being built in the hillsides. We were
trying to keep the ridge, we were trying to keep the trees,
we were trying to do a lot of things by allowing square
footage to be put underground.
But one of the things we never intended was to go
with a home that had already met the 6,000 square foot
level and then add more square footage below. That was not
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the intent, and one of the reasons of course is that it has
a tremendously… We have better engineering now than we had
when this was written, but it doesn’t make any difference.
It still has an amazing negative consequence when you start
digging into that hillside, whether it’s drainage or
whether it’s the stability of the hillside, and you can
hope you hit bedrock, but it doesn’t mean you’re going to,
it means you’re going to spend a lot of money on retaining
walls.
I’m just so saddened, frankly. I don’t recognize
all of you. There were a lot that were there that are no
longer here, like our wonderful Gary Schloh and a few of
the others, but what we really need to take a look at is
these newer homes, all of which I have been through in the
last little while. Not one of them is without a basement,
and apparently the basement is for no other reason than
that much more saleable square footage.
I live on Glen Ridge. Four houses, historical,
have all been refurbed. They all started at 3,000 square
feet. Every house was lifted. Everyone now has an
additional at least 1,000 square feet, and six people live
in one of those houses, and there are six more cars on the
street. And if we think that that additional square footage
is not going to be rented when various things change within
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those now huge houses, we’re naïve. Six or seven thousand
square feet? No, folks, that is rentable square footage.
We tried very hard to keep to a minimum the
habitable square footage of the additional square footage
that could be added. Oh my God, if you guys were there, and
I don’t recognize a lot of you, but we talked about keeping
it at 4’ so you couldn’t stand up in it, using it for
storage space that in fact would be something that you
could take from your home and now make livable space within
the home, so those were a few of the intended consequences.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: One second, Vice Chair Kane I
think has a question? Oh, Commissioner Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Thank you so much for your
comments and for your insight into the original thinking,
and it sounds like you’ve heard a lot of our concerns.
My question was this. I think some people have
put forth that changing the Cellar Policy isn’t going to
necessarily change what’s happening with bulk and mass, so
I just wondered what your thoughts were about some of the
other ideas that have been put out, which would clearly
need to be fleshed out, about providing incentives for
people to have less stories, or if they’re going to have a
daylight basement that there might be a multiplier, or they
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have to have some more setbacks versus just making the
square footage of the basement count?
SANDY DECKER: You have a 6,000 square foot
maximum. You add anything that’s put under the ground in
that house, that’s all there is to it, and it’s over. I
think Mr. O'Donnell put it beautifully. That’s the problem.
We have money. Big money is in real estate right now, and I
don’t blame these guys. They’re working for clients, and
the clients are the Young Turks that are buying these
houses and living in them, and there are two people in
7,000 square feet.
So we know what’s happening. In fact, when policy
was made it was the first time in the hillsides we began to
see… You remember the “Magic McMonster” house? Well, this
was one of the ways we were trying to minimize that effect.
The policy now doesn’t minimize it, it simply adds to the
opportunity for us to add to the square footage, and as I
say, the structural impact of going down the way they do is
amazing.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Thank you.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Commissioner Hudes.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you, and again I will
echo my fellow commissioners’ comments about appreciating
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your perspectives, since you were involved in this along
the way.
One issue that has been raised is whether this
would put Los Gatos in a somewhat different position than
neighboring communities. If that were the case that our
policies were inconsistent with neighboring communities
with regard to this, would you regard that as an issue, as
a good thing, or do you think there might be concerns with
having Los Gatos quite different from neighboring
communities?
SANDY DECKER: It’s not concern; it’s why we did
it. We are unique. You’ve all heard me say it a thousand
times, we sit in this magic little bowl that happens to be
pushed up against these hillsides, and we are unique,
extremely unique, and part of this was to hold onto that
uniqueness and not become a Saratoga or an Atherton or
several of the other cities that they’ve talked about. No,
we don’t need these great, giant homes hanging on the
hillsides, and that’s exactly what was happening.
So we tried literally to come up with something,
and that was a fix not intended to say, again, you take
that monster house and you run it right to the line. Six
thousand square feet in those hills is a lot of square
footage, and a lot of foundation, and a lot of retaining
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walls. Now dig out, because we can’t just have, we’ll call
it a basement—it’s not, it’s a third story—and it can’t be
just 8’ tall, it’s got to be at least 10’, because that’s
what these people want. So you’ve got even more impact. You
go to the open houses, you did the beautiful historical
house tour. You know what’s happening. So I think that’s
what you’re working toward is finding a way not to let this
become even more impactful.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: All right, any other questions?
Thank you very much. Angelia Doerner.
ANGELIA DOERNER: Hello, Angelia Doerner, proud
resident of the Almond Grove. I’m going to surprise you and
not spend even up to the yellow light.
I’ve heard a lot of unintentional, and now Sandy
has been talking about intent, and that really fits in with
what I wanted to request.
It is so important to document what is going on
in these proceedings so that people in the future do
understand what the spirit and intent was. I was very
disappointed that at least the Policy Committee meeting was
not transcribed so that we had something to work with that
didn’t lose the comments from the Policy Committee or from
any of the public that showed up there.
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I love the idea of a study session so that the
public can be involved, or at least present to hear what’s
going on. If it were a committee, I would hope that the
public is also invited. No matter which situation, if those
things could be transcribed, or better yet, recorded,
because there’s much more in the tone and everything else
that you hear differently as to intent and spirit than just
reading the written word.
So anyway, that’s just my suggestion, my request.
Thank you.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Are there any questions? Thank
you very much. Next card I have is Michael Davis.
MICHAEL DAVIS: Good evening, Commissioners.
Michael Davis, D&Z Design Associates, and I’ve had the
opportunity to sit before this Commission on numerous
occasions over the years, so I’ve met Commissioner Kane
numerous times in his time on the Commission.
I want to thank the colleagues. There are a lot
of talented and creative people sitting here that I’ve had
the pleasure to work with on this. You can’t believe what
we were throwing around in that three hour meeting, but one
of the things that did come out in the first hour, and as a
group the only thing we agreed upon, is the policy that you
have today works.
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Why does it work? You have the ability as a
planning commission, you have Hillside Guidelines to go
with, you have the reduction in square footage allowed
because of a slope reduction, and we don’t get 6,000 square
foot on these hillside lots. We have to take a slope
reduction, and that limits the size of houses that we can
put on these lots.
Again, we agreed that the policy works, but we
felt that there is a concern with the Commissioners that we
had to come up with some ideas for you, and that’s what you
saw before you in the letter, kind of consensus. Not
everything was locked down, but it was some different ideas
that might ease the concern of that. Now, again, Planning
Commission review; peer architect review, we have to go
through peer architects, they get a chance to look at this;
looking at your ordinances; slope reduction; the side area;
and the Hillside Design Guidelines.
I have a couple of examples for you that we did
that we didn’t have 6,000 square foot allowed. It was on
Reservoir Road, it was a few years ago, five to seven years
ago, and we had a house that we had to step down the
hillside. We had a little flat pen and it dropped down the
hillside. Well, we had a square footage allowed of about
5,500 square feet, but in designing the home and saving
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trees and looking at many different options we felt we need
to have some kind of what is called today a cellar of 350
square feet. If we had to count that cellar plus everything
behind it, as Mr. Kohlsaat showed, we would have put that
350 square feet above the ground. It wasn’t going to be the
maximum above ground plus underneath; we would have taken
350 square feet and worked it in somehow as a second level,
adding bulk and mass, if you will. We stepped down the
hillside actually exactly like your Hillside Guidelines
showed as we stepped down. It was brought up before, we’re
limited to 35’ from the bottom where the grade hits to the
top of the roof; we can’t go father than that, can’t
cascade down or anything. The daylight plane is greater
with the existing slope that we have.
Another thing in terms of basements, if we have
an 8,000 square foot lot we’re limited to 2,500 square
feet. If we have a 12,000 square foot lot right next to
that, that means we’ve got a little 2,500 square foot
house, but they can’t add a basement to get extra square
footage to compete with the house right next door. That
hurts us in that regard on there.
The other example, real quick if I might, is we
had a two-story house proposed, neighbor didn’t want a two-
story house. We had a little bit of a slope. We stuck that
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square footage underneath. If we had to count that whole
square footage, we wouldn’t have been able to do it and we
would have said to the neighbor I’m sorry, we’re going to
go with a two-story house, regardless of what you say.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Okay, your time is up. Any
questions? Thank you very much. The next card I have is
Shannon Susick.
SHANNON SUSICK: Good evening. Sorry I came down
in my pajamas; I had to. Was working on appraisals and real
estate contracts, and I’m cutting my left foot off by
saying I love the solidarity of the architects in this
town, however, the Basement and Cellar Policy needs some
modifications; it needs clarification. They should be
combined. The hillsides should be separate. Atherton is not
a comparison to Los Gatos or Los Altos Hills; there is no
hillside there.
The flats in Los Gatos, I believe that the cellar
should count as a bonus, or basement, whatever you decide
to choose, because in the flat areas of our town the two-
story homes that are going up are impacting neighbors in a
very adverse way. You add a cellar or basement; give some
additional living space, and that works. It doesn’t impact
the neighbors, less time at Planning Commission hearings,
less time with appeals, privacy, views, all that.
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As far as the hillsides, I’m sorry, I have done a
number of appraisals where the basement is considered
living area, but it’s actually a full floor, and it has an
adverse impact on views and is included in the FAR. So I
think it should be in the hillside included in the FAR.
I’m sorry for my architect friends, some of them
who live in town, most of them who do not but make their
living here, and I understand it is an economic issue for
them, but as far as the impact on our town, our services,
views, trees, in general the hillside should be considered
different, and I think that they should possibly get a
negative, whereas the flats, you should get a bonus for
your basement area.
I really appreciate your time. If you have any
questions, I mean I have 20 years.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: I’ve been chastised for not
asking for your address.
SHANNON SUSICK: Oh, my address. I’m so sorry,
Tom. 16407 Shady View Lane, and we are in an area that is
completely impacted by development of two stories,
basements, and county versus town.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Are there questions? If not,
thank you for coming down.
SHANNON SUSICK: Thanks.
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CHAIR O'DONNELL: I have, I believe, the last
card, and I believe it’s Melanie Kemp.
MELANIE KEMP: Thank you very much, Melanie Kemp,
174 Cuesta De Los Gatos Way here in Los Gatos.
I do live in a neighborhood that is impacted with
any development that’s done on a hillside, but I’m here
more importantly because I’ve been in real estate for 41
years. I was sitting here not knowing I was going to
comment tonight, but I’ve been hearing from our esteemed
Town architects here about the impact, or the lack of
impact, that this basement or cellar area is going to have
on our homes.
I’m from the Midwest, and cellars for us by
definition were a place where we stored potatoes and
turnips and hid from tornados. In the past 41 years in real
estate I have seen this cellar concept and definition
stretched so far I don’t even recognize cellar anymore. I
definitely believe that there should be a difference
between a hillside situation and the flats. I sell in
Atherton and Woodside and Palo Alto and Los Altos, and I
can tell you that the flatland there is not at all compared
to our hillsides that we’re seeing in Saratoga and Los
Gatos, but I’m speaking specifically towards Los Gatos.
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I also take exception to an architect’s comment
that basement space is expensive construction, because I
will tell you that it is not even half the cost of building
something above grade. One of the examples here was talking
about building something below grade here, and if I’m going
to count it totally towards the FAR, well, I’m just going
to forget that, let’s just build it above grade. But I’m
going to tell you they’re not going to do that, because the
cost of the construction of that square footage above grade
is going to be cost prohibitive.
I can also tell you from a real estate standpoint
that that 6,000 square feet, that expands to 7,000 square
feet. From a buyer’s perspective and an appraiser’s
perspective, as long as it’s living square footage that’s
going to have exactly the same cost, i.e. value, to a buyer
on a cost per square foot basis. They don’t discount,
saying it’s 6,000 and by the way, only 5,500 of that is
basement. They’re saying we have 7,500 square feet of
living space here, and the value of the house is based on
that.
So if we don’t discount basement area in the FAR,
you’re going to greatly be increasing every new
construction home, especially on hillsides, to include a
basement, because any more square footage they can get out
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of that house is going to increase the overall value of
that home.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Thank you. Are there questions?
Thank you very much. I have another last card; it’s David
Zicovich.
DAVID ZICOVICH: David Zicovich, 112 Mossol. I’m
unprepared to speak today, but I have to comment on the
last speaker.
Below grade square footage is considerably more
expensive than above grade, so I need to correct that
immediately. These people don’t represent themselves; they
represent their clients. Most of the clients that build in
this town already live in this town, and they’re just
moving up.
I’ll leave it at that right now. Any questions?
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Are there any questions? There
are not, so thank you very much. That’s the last card I
have.
So what we’re going to do is we’re going to close
the public input into this hearing, and we’re going to take
a five-minute recess.
(INTERMISSION)
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Okay, so we’ve closed the
public input, and so now it’s a chance for us to discuss
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the many thoughts that have been expressed and what we
should do. We have recommendations from Staff; we’ve all
seen that. We’re not constrained by those recommendations.
So I’ll look forward to hearing from each of you as to what
you think we should do, and why. Who would like to start?
Yes, Commissioner Hudes.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: I just wanted to start with
a question of Staff in terms of the purview of the work
that we’re doing, and maybe the Chair as well.
There were some suggestions about things like
daylight planes, and two-story versus one-story, FARS, and
other things like that. Am I correct to assume that those
are not on the table for us, that we’re here to consider
only the Cellar Policy?
JOEL PAULSON: That’s correct.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: It’s my understanding—and to
follow up, so I can get a comment too—we can either say
yeah, it’s a great draft and we recommend to the Council
that they approve it; or we can say we don’t think this is
quite it because of X, Y, and Z; or we could recommend to
the Council what some people suggested, that we either have
a study group or have some more study, but I think we
should be crystal clear on why, because it doesn’t
necessarily get us anywhere if we’re vague about that. But
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that is how we’re constrained, so I don’t think anybody is
looking for us tonight to rewrite anything, so that’s my
understanding.
JOEL PAULSON: Through the Chair, I would just
offer that you’re 100% right. You can either agree with the
recommendation that we’re bringing forward on behalf of the
Town Council Policy Committee, you could recommend that it
be denied, or you could recommend that it be approved with
additional direction for the Council to consider when they
actually take this up, because there is another step. This
isn’t the last step. It’s not a policy, it’s a code
amendment, and so it must go the Town Council for adoption.
So you do have a very wide range of opportunities for
decisions this evening.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Thank you. Yes, Commissioner
Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I looked at this a lot and
where I came out on it is, well, first of all there’s the
issue on the table about whether or not there’s a Cellar
Policy and whether or not the information in the Cellar
Policy is incorporated in our Town Code versus stated as a
separate policy, and then there’s also the issue of the
definition of basement versus cellar, and then where all
those things apply in our Town Code. And then the most
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contentious issue of course is how daylight basements, or
below grade square footage, is counted.
I think that it makes sense to go ahead with all
of the changes except for that one, and what I would
recommend is that we go ahead with all the changes and add
back in the language where we actually count the portion of
the square footage of a day lit basement that is 4’ above,
and not count the part that’s not visible, as is in our
current language, because I don’t think that’s going to
solve the real problem, which is going out and maxing out
the square foot above ground and then building a basement
on top of that.
I think there are some other ways that we can
attack that problem, and there are other ways that we need
to attack that problem. A lot of ideas were put on the
table tonight, but I don’t think any of them are fleshed
out enough for us to go ahead and say this is the way that
we can fix our bulk and mass problem, and I don’t think
that the right way to it is by changing how we count the
basement square footage when part of it is day lit.
So that would be my general thinking, to go ahead
with all the changes except for that, and then look for
maybe a study session or committee, or whatever it would
take, to research some of these other alternatives to
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address the problem that we have with the abuse of what was
the Cellar Policy.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Commissioner Badame.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: I would just like to add my
comments about a study session, because I was against it at
our last hearing. In theory it might sound great, but this
has been in the works for a year. There’s been a lot of
study that’s been involved, with the opportunity for
architects and the public to attend these hearings that
have happened over the course of a year.
I’m going back to four years ago. The Planned
Development Ordinance has been a problem where there’s been
a lot of misinterpretation and abuse, so four years ago the
Commissioners heard a new ordinance, or a rewriting of the
ordinance. So we went through the hearings, the public was
invited, and it was forwarded to Town Council since it was
just a recommendation. As it turned out, an ad hoc
committee was appointed, and they had several hearings,
they met several times. That was over three years ago. So
here it is. It started four years ago, and four years later
it’s dead. It got talked to death. Nothing has happened.
So for us to do a study session and talk this to
death as well where nobody is going to agree on all the
points, I’m not a fan of that.
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CHAIR O'DONNELL: Okay. Commissioner Janoff.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: At the last Planning
Commission meeting when this came up I didn’t think that
the changes to code or policy that were recommended were
going to solve the question that seemed to be clearly at
hand, which is the issue of reducing the floor area ratio,
reducing square footage overall, and reducing impact on
bulk, mass, and scale. I still believe that the recommended
changes don’t address the fundamental problem, however, the
recommended changes do clarify issues regarding the
definitions of cellar and basement and below grade.
So I would be in favor of doing what Commissioner
Hanssen has suggested, which is essentially carry
everything forward in terms of clarifying basement and
cellar, however, keeping the language that counts only that
square footage visible above 48”, and the reason for that
is we still have the latitude as a planning commission to
look critically at what we want to consider or approve in
overall square footage without penalizing good use of below
grade square footage, so I think it’s important that we
carry forward the good changes that clarify.
I don't know what the format would be, but there
have been some good recommendations that other
municipalities have used in terms of reducing bulk and
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mass, and I think if Los Gatos doesn’t include those in our
decision making materials or the design materials, then we
should include the light planes and limiting the two-story
length of walls, and the step backs from boundary lines.
I think we need more. This is an overly
constrained problem, in my view. We’re throwing one set of
language at two really different problems and expecting
good outcomes, and I think that’s expecting too much of
these words. So at the very least, keep the language the
way it is. If you bring forward the full counting the
basement, count that for flat areas or areas under a
certain percentage of slope, and then create new language
that addresses properties that are on a steeper slope so
that you can begin to differentiate between the visual
impact of what happens with this policy.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Other comments? Commissioner
Hudes.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: I agree very much with
Commissioner Hanssen’s assessment of the situation and
where we are, and a possible path forward through this. I
would also suggest that the reasons why I would be
uncomfortable about supporting the proposed policy change
with regard to counting all square footage is that I think
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some very important points have been raised and I think
those need to be recognized.
I think that the issues that trouble me about it
are that we are entering into regulating things that we
can’t see, that it puts Los Gatos out of step with other
communities, thereby affecting property values in Los
Gatos, and that there could very well be unintended, or I
believe as Dr. Badame stated, have the reverse effect of
driving bulk and mass above ground.
I’ve only been on the Commission for a short time
relative to some of the other Commissioners, but I believe
there is a problem, and I believe the problem is that we’re
getting a request for development where there is excessive
bulk and mass and scale on the hillsides and that some work
needs to be done.
The proposed change from the Policy Committee is
appealing, because it’s simple and clear, but I believe
it’s taking a meat cleaver to a problem where a scalpel is
needed, and so I think that there is more work to be done
on that part of the issue while the rest of the work I
think is actually very, very helpful.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Other comments? Vice Chair
Kane, I don’t think we’ve heard from you.
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VICE CHAIR KANE: This issue came up because
there was a problem, and the problem may have been abuse,
and we’ve heard citizens talk about how that abuse has
affected them.
When the Town of Los Gatos Council Policy
Committee met in July of 2016, one of their items was
review and discuss the Cellar Policy and basement
definition. Members and staff present at that meeting were
Vice Mayor Marico Sayoc, Council Member Marcia Jensen,
Community Development Director Joel Paulson, and Christina
Gilmore. Those four people vetted whatever had come to them
in the form of reforming the policy. What is it? Replace
and repeal? Repeal and replace. And those two Council
members served many years on the Planning Commission and I
guess may have had similar experiences to mine about, as
someone said, monster houses in the hillside. I’m very
passionate about the hillside, no secret. I like this town.
I want to do all we can to preserve and protect.
So I hear what you’re saying about tweaking this
and tweaking that. We’ve got Planning Commissioners on Town
Council who may be able to tweak that with a ton more
experience than we have. Well, except for Tom.
So I’m going to see what happens by making a
motion.
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CHAIR O'DONNELL: I get a chance to talk too
before any motions.
VICE CHAIR KANE: You do?
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Yes. We’re going down the line,
and I’m at the end of the line.
VICE CHAIR KANE: I can’t make a motion?
CHAIR O'DONNELL: That’s correct.
VICE CHAIR KANE: Whoa.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: We’re all having an
opportunity. (Inaudible) my opportunity, you picked the
wrong guy.
Let me say this. There’s nothing wrong with what
we presently have, except us. We’ve had each opportunity to
say no, it’s too big, and you don’t need that basement.
Make your choice; do you want the thing you’re putting on
top, which we think is too big, or do you want the
basement, and let’s get some tradeoffs here.
We’ve all been doing this a long time and I don’t
remember… We say that each time, but I can remember some
glaring examples where we could have been a lot tougher,
and perhaps we need something to beef up us and those who
follow after us.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with what we
have, but if you look at what is being proposed I think
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it’s a good idea to get rid of the two definitional issues.
I think basically what I’ve heard from the three of you
here is something that I can agree with.
This idea of using a basement started out as an
incentive. Now it’s turning into the opposite of an
incentive, and I think we have to revisit why do we have
this basement thing? And if we have the basement thing as
an incentive to reduce bulk and mass, that’s a good thing
if it works. This idea of throwing the whole thing out if
it daylights I don’t think makes any sense. I think that is
a disincentive and it says put everything on top, put
nothing below. I don’t think that’s a good idea.
I think I’ve heard three people saying this
already so I’m merely saying I agree with them, I think
when you get down to a final question, and that is do you
want to just do what we’ve been doing? And I, for one,
think we could have done a better job with what we got, but
if you say okay, you didn’t do a better job so let’s give
you, the Commission, some incentive, maybe we could use a
percentage. You could say to the extent that you have
daylight, rather that merely adding in the daylight section
and not adding in the back of it, we could use a formula,
and some formula has been suggested, 1.2, and there’s
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magic… Well, there is magic. If you say 1.5, it gets more
draconian.
So Michael can make his motion in a minute, but I
would just say this. The only issue I have is if people
feel we have not been doing what we could have been doing,
and that’s what I kind of feel, and I blame myself for
that. So if there’s a way to have some recitation in
whatever we do about what our duty is, and that is unless
we see a reduction in bulk and mass we don’t approve the
basement, maybe that would help us, and that is the
intention, but maybe we should say it better.
And then if somebody says that’s still not good
enough, then I would suggest we get into the percentage
thing. Instead of foot for foot, it could be 1.2, it could
be 1.3, or it could be something else. And if we go into
that, then I don’t think we have to make that number up
tonight, but if we’re going to make a recommendation to the
Council tonight we could tell them that is one way to
handle that problem, and it has been suggested by the
architects I believe at 1.2. I don’t feel competent
certainly at the moment to come up with a number, but that
has been suggested.
So anyway, that is simply where I’m coming from,
and that having been said, Michael, if you want to make a
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motion, be my guest. Oh, Commissioner Hudes is asking if he
can say something.
VICE CHAIR KANE: Yes, he can.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you. I think that we
attempted to address an issue that is limiting bulk, mass,
and scale of hillside residences with one piece of it,
which is the Cellar Policy, because we viewed that as sort
of a loophole that folks were using. I think during the
course of looking at that we heard about other potential
levers that could be pulled to address that issue, so I
would just sort of add my voice to that in any
recommendation to the Council that we consider other things
as well, because I think only trying to control that with
the Cellar Policy is going to be insufficient to deal with
the issue.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Don’t we presently have the
ability—forget the cellar for a moment—to say bulk and mass
is overpowering and we’re not going to prove that? We don’t
need a cellar to say that. The cellar originally was
designed as an incentive. If it’s used as an incentive,
then we have two tools. If we don’t have the cellar, we
still have the one tool, and there are others. But I’m
responding to you only because I agree with what you’re
saying.
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COMMISSIONER HUDES: I agree, yeah.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Okay, Commissioner Badame, and
warm up your motion.
COMMISSIONER BADAME: If you don’t mind if I make
a comment real quick. Part of the disparity with this bulk
and mass comes down to we don’t always agree with Staff,
Staff doesn’t always agree with the Planning Commission,
Planning Commission doesn’t always agree with what Council
might override, they might not agree with us or Staff. So
we need to put things more on the same page so that we have
consistency.
For me, the intent of the proposed amendments,
they add specificity that we need, it regulates the playing
field, and it strengthens the goals and policies of our
General Plan. In a perfect world the existing policy should
work, the cellars would be completely buried, they’d be
hidden from view, they’d be used as storage areas and not
as livable space, but we’ve had a lot of abuse and I would
be in favor of passing the amendments as proposed.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: All right, are there other
comments before we have the pending motion made? Vice Chair
Kane, did you want to make your motion?
VICE CHAIR KANE: I move to approve what the
Staff recommendations were suggesting that the Planning
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Commission forward the draft, the Town Code amendments, to
the Town Council with a recommendation for adoption to
rescind the Cellar Policy.
I make the finding that there is no possibility
that this project will have a significant impact on the
environment; therefore the project is not subject to the
California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA).
I make the required findings that the Town Code
amendments are consistent with the General Plan, that we
forward a recommendation to the Town Council for approval
of the amendments, and forward a recommendation to the Town
Council to rescind the Cellar Policy.
Now, that’s the Staff’s recommendation, and it’s
99% mine. We also have alternatives, and I just want to
make sure we can get there from here tonight.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Wait a minute, did you finish
your motion.
VICE CHAIR KANE: No.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Sounded like it to me.
VICE CHAIR KANE: We have alternatives to also
continue with amendments and modifications, so if you want
to be specific if you want a change in it, we could work
that into this motion. That’s the motion.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Is there a second?
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COMMISSIONER JANOFF: I have a question.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: I’d like to get a second before
we discuss the motion, because if it doesn’t get a second…
COMMISSIONER BADAME: Second.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Okay, so yes, now you can ask
your question.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: My question was does the
motion allow for language change? At least that’s what it
sounded like.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Let me make this suggestion to
you. I assume you could ask the maker of the motion and the
seconder to adopt some changes to that language, or you
could defeat the motion and make your own motion, so
whatever seems to you to be the best path. That being said,
are there some comments, questions, suggestions?
Commissioner Janoff.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: My suggestion would be to
forward the proposal as written with the change in language
that changes section 29.10.020, Definitions, that the
language that says, “That entire floor counts as gross
floor area,” to remove that phrase and replace it with,
“That area of any elevation where the building height
exceeds 4’ above existing or finished grade shall be
included in the floor area ratio calculation.” What that
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does is it pushes the language, the clarifications,
forward, but it retains the partial calculation of the
floor area with the daylighting.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: All right, so I’ll ask the
maker of the motion whether they would adopt that language?
VICE CHAIR KANE: Yes.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: And the seconder?
COMMISSIONER BADAME: I would consider it if it
could be reworded that we consider the individual
Commissioner comments, not that we actually draft that
language, so I would say no.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: I would agree with that,
because I think it guts the motion. It’s like saying the
motion is everything is blue, and then we say except that
which is green, which is 99%.
So the seconder does not consent. Does somebody
else want to second the… Now we’ve got the situation the
second of the motion as amended, because the maker of the
motion said he would consent.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: But doesn’t it die from the
lack of (inaudible)?
CHAIR O'DONNELL: It does die, but since he’s
got… I can tell you this, he can make the motion again now
as you suggested, but he would still need a second.
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ROBERT SCHULTZ: So there’s a motion on the
floor. That motion should be voted on since the seconder…
CHAIR O'DONNELL: It failed. It didn’t get a
second.
ROBERT SCHULTZ: The first motion did, and so
it’s still on the floor.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Oh, the maker of the motion
then would, I think, have to consent.
ROBERT SCHULTZ: He can either withdraw his
motion altogether, because he wants those amendments to be
made, or that motion could still be voted on.
VICE CHAIR KANE: What I wanted was a clear path
that we could send something to Council tonight or this
week, and it’s only a recommendation, but having said that,
I withdraw the motion.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Let me suggest, and I’m not
going to make the motion—as the Chair I don’t want to do
that—but I would suggest that one of the three of you that
have talked and have agreed with each other might consider
making a motion similar to what Commissioner Janoff just
said, and as I understand it, it tracks what Commissioner
Badame and Vice Chair Kane want, except a very substantial
difference, which is to say that if anything daylights the
whole floor gets added in as opposed to merely that portion
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which is daylighted. So that’s what I understand
Commissioner Janoff to want, so if that motion were made I
think we would have a clearer motion on that point, and if
we could get a second, we could vote on it. Commissioner
Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: All right, so I’ll make a
new motion that we forward the recommendation to consider
all the amendments to the Chapter 29 Zoning Regulations of
the Town Code regarding cellars that were made to us, with
the exception of the specific language that governs what
counts when there is a daylighted basement, to only count,
as in the current policy, what is visible versus what is
not visible of that 48” basement. That would be the only
change to the language that was recommended to us.
In addition to that, I would like the Council to
consider any one of these ideas in whatever vehicle would
make sense, including increased upper story setbacks, if
there is a daylight basement, reduced height limits, the
potential of the multiplier, because the goal is to reduce
the bulk and mass, especially in the hillsides, so I would
ask in addition to making those recommendations that we
would ask Council to consider some techniques that we can
use to incentivize people to reduce bulk and mass.
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CHAIR O'DONNELL: I assume that you would also
make the recommendations set forth on page 3.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: And I do find that there
is no impact to CEQA, and that the Town Code amendments are
consistent with the General Plan.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: All right, that’s the motion.
Is there a second? Commissioner Hudes.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: I would second the motion. I
also have some language suggestions to clarify some things
that I thought were a little bit ambiguous that I would ask
the maker to consider.
On page 2 of Exhibit 10, under Item 2 where it
says, “Below grade footage is permitted only once,” I think
that that may not be clear language. Once usually refers to
a time. I think we’re talking about is only permitted in
one continuous location rather than at one time. I think
it’s an issue of locations, not time. Maybe that isn’t the
right language, but I think the word once is…
CHAIR O'DONNELL: I, too, recall where it said
apparently you could have a basement under your garage if
you wanted to, but if you did that, then you couldn’t come
in later and say now I want one under my house. It sounds
kind of bizarre to me, but that is what it said.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Right, and that’s…
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CHAIR O'DONNELL: How would you clarify that?
COMMISSIONER HUDES: I would say that that’s the
intention that I think is important, but the term once to
me refers to time rather than to locations, so I’d like to
clarify that to refer to locations.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Would the maker accept that?
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I accept that.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: And the seconder? Is yourself.
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Yes, I think I would.
I had another suggestion, which is on Item 5,
that defines how the Planning Commission may allow
exceptions, and it says, “The Planning Commission may allow
an exception to the criteria listed above based on
extenuating or exceptional circumstances applicable to the
property; including size, shape, topography, location, or
surroundings. I would suggest adding the words, “including
circumstances such as size, shape, topography, location, or
surroundings,” because I think it’s important the Planning
Commission have the discretion if there’s another factor
that causes them to have a reason to make an exception.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: It goes on to say in so doing
we have to specify the reasons?
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Yes, and specify the
reasons.
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CHAIR O'DONNELL: Okay, so does the maker of the
motion accept that?
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: If I understand you,
you’re saying that under Item 5 it shouldn’t be limited to
size, shape, topography, location, or surroundings, it
could include other factors as well, is that what you
meant?
COMMISSIONER HUDES: Yes.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Then I accept that.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Anything else, Commissioner
Hudes? Okay, Commissioner Janoff.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: Just that same paragraph, a
question. The words “extenuating or exceptional
circumstance” to me sounds like there has to be something
quite extraordinary to consider it. I’m wondering whether
those words need to be in there.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: My understanding of those words
would essentially be that we have to decide whether we
think it’s extraordinary, but the good news is if it gets
appealed or it automatically goes to Council anyway,
they’re going to tell us whether they agree with our
definition of extraordinary. I would hate to try to define
any more than extraordinary.
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COMMISSIONER JANOFF: I was suggesting removing
those words.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Oh, I kind of like them,
because if we have that we should be able to willy-nilly
change that, and it should take something, I would think,
extraordinary before we could not follow what is otherwise
the black letter of the law. But that’s up to you; it’s
your choice.
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: My only concern about that
is that we don’t have black letter law in all cases, and so
what you’re describing is a frustration of the Planning
Commission, or limitations of the Planning Commission in
making tough decisions about reducing mass and scale and
all that. It seems to me requiring that decision to be
based on extenuating or exceptional seems like a higher
standard to meet.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Than extraordinary? I’m just
lost. I got lost there. Those two words are better or worse
than extraordinary?
COMMISSIONER JANOFF: I’m saying they presume a
certain standard and they should be eliminated.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: And so what would be remaining?
Just at our discretion we cannot follow this.
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COMMISSIONER JANOFF: Criteria above based on
circumstances applicable to the property, including blah,
blah, blah. So they don’t have to be extraordinary or
exceptional or extenuating circumstances, they can be the
opinion of the committee in terms of something that’s…
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Let me first before we go there
ask the maker of the motion whether she would adopt that?
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: That’s acceptable to me.
You might want to suggest replacing it with unique or
something, but I’d be fine with dropping those two
adjectives.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Just so I understand the maker
of the motion, is there any standard, or just as we decide?
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I think that what I
understood Commissioner Janoff, what she was referring to
is that we need to look at the unique circumstances of that
particular property; we don’t necessarily know what the
factors will be until we see and hold the hearing.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: So unique is something that you
think belongs there?
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I’d be fine with it or
without it. I think the intent of this statement is that
the Planning Commission would be looking at something
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specific to that particular property to make those
findings.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: That’s the maker. Seconder?
COMMISSIONER HUDES: I’m less comfortable with
eliminating the terms, because I think we could end up with
a situation where you have an exception that you can drive
a truck through, so I think that in other cases where there
have been exceptions to the Hillside Design Guidelines, and
we had this discussion in Planned Developments as well,
there needs to be something really particular about the
circumstances.
I personally am okay with extenuating or
exceptional. I’m okay with extraordinary. I’d prefer those
two words, but that would be my bias, to include something
that doesn’t make it completely open-ended and that
encourages the Planning Commission to have some findings
that there’s something particularly unique about these
circumstances.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I don’t feel that strongly
about the language being there or not, and I do understand
Commissioner Hudes’ point, so I will keep my motion where
it is with those words in there.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: With his words?
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COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Yeah, with the words as
written in Item 5 right now.
CHAIR O'DONNELL: Oh, okay. All right, so we have
a motion and a second. Is there any conversation before we
call the question? Then I will call the question.
All those in favor of the motion, raise their
right hand. So we have four votes in favor and two… Well,
I’ll ask. How many are opposing? Two opposing. So the
motion carries.