Attachment 9 - February 25, 2015 Planning Commission Verbatim minutes1
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Los Gatos Planning
Commissioners:
APPEARANCE S:
Kendra Burch, Chair
Mary Badame, Vice Chair
Charles Erekson
Melanie Hanssen
D. Michael Kane
Tom O'Donnell
Joanne Talesfore
Community Development Laurel Prevetti
Director:
Planning Manager: Joel Paulson
Town Attorney: Robert Schultz
Transcribed by: Vicki L. Blandin
(510) 337-1558
ATTACHMENT 9
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PROCEEDING S:
CHAIR BURCH: We will now move on to the public
hearing portion of our agenda and consider Agenda Item #1,
which is an application for Conditional Use Permit U-13-12,
Subdivision Application M-13-04, and Architecture and Site
Application S-13-20 through -27. It is requesting approval
to construct eight residential condominiums on property
zoned C-1. APN 527-44-12-13.
May I have a show of hands of Commissioners who
have visited the property? Are there any disclosures on
this item? Commissioner Erekson.
CHARLES EREKSON: Just for the record, I'd like
to disclose that since the last meeting I've been in what I
would call the Howes-Hershner neighborhood six times at
varying times of the day, and I've been on the site of the
property four times, and in the neighborhood walking the
neighborhood four different times on four different days at
four different times of the day. I'll have some comments
about that when we get to the appropriate moment during the
hearing.
CHAIR BURCH: Great, thank you. We'll look
forward to hearing that. All right. Mr. Paulson, I
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understand that you're going to be giving us the Staff
Report this evening.
JOEL PAULSON: Yes, thank you, Chair Burch. A
very brief Staff Report.
This was before the Planning Commission last on
January 28th of this year. At that meeting the Planning
Commission continued the matter to tonight's meeting with
direction to study the shade and shadow impacts to the
neighbors and return with potential solutions as needed to
address these impacts, such as removing or modifying the
second stories.
So tonight the Applicant has provided a solar
study that they believe shows that there is a very minimal
impact from a shade perspective and shadowing perspective.
I believe their consultant who prepared that study is also
here. They'll be doing a presentation.
Tonight the Planning Commission should determine
whether or not the direction from them at the last meeting
has been adequately addressed, and then take whatever
action they feel is appropriate for these sets of
applications that were outlined by the Chair.
With that, that concludes Staff's report. We're
available for questions, and again, the Applicant is also
here and will be doing a presentation.
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CHAIR BURCH: Thank you, Mr. Paulson. Does anyone
have any questions of Staff? Commissioner Talesfore.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: I do. This may have been
asked before. I was absent for the last meeting, so I just
wanted to clarify something. I was wondering, where is
there another example of a development where the Town has
done 100% residential in a commercial zone? Is there?
JOEL PAULSON: There are a couple on Los Gatos
Boulevard. The old Honda site is some commercial, CH.
That's the one that sticks out. That was done with a
Planned Development.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: And was that done with a
General Plan amendment though?
JOEL PAULSON: There was not a General Plan
amendment, no.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: It was just a PD? I
can't remember.
JOEL PAULSON: Correct.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Okay.
JOEL PAULSON: In this type of scenario there's
one on Towne Terrace, but that was zoned residential.
There's also across the street from this a property that's
zoned C-1 that has residential units on it more in a
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single-family configuration, but that was done some time
ago in, I believe, the seventies.
CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Badame.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Are any of these detached
single-family units considered condos? I think there's a
classification for condos.
JOEL PAULSON: A condominium as an ownership
type?
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Yes.
JOEL PAULSON: Detached condos, the ones that
come to mind, are both in residential zones. There's one on
Towne Terrace that has three units, and there is also a
two -unit project that are detached condos on, I think,
Forest Drive.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: So they're on residential
zoned. We don't have anything like this on a commercial
zone is what you're saying?
JOEL PAULSON: Not that are condos, that's
correct.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you.
CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Talesfore.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: I just wanted to also
let my fellow commissioners and Staff know that I did
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review the last meeting tape, and I forgot to reveal that
during the minutes, so let me do it now.
CHAIR BURCH: Thank you for the disclosure. Any
other questions of Staff at this time? No? All right.
Now we're going to open the public portion of the
public hearing and we're going to give the Applicant an
opportunity to address the Commission for up to five
minutes. Mr. Kummerer. I'm sure you're familiar, but please
adjust the microphone and state your name and address for
the record.
CHRIS KUMMERER: Thank you. Chris Kummerer, 2089
Avy, Menlo Park. Happy to be here again to discuss our
project with you.
I'm just going to bore you with the history of
the project tonight, and I was going to go through the
whole history. I'm not going to do that; I want to just cut
to the chase.
Basically we've been doing this for two -and -a -
half years. We stated at CDAC, we looked at the density,
and we went to the next technical review. We kept improving
the project as we went along, designing the buildings
better and better. Waiting six months for the consulting
environmental review, got through that and really designed
the buildings in depth with the materials; we think they
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look great. Brought the Planning Commission here, went
through all the details of the design, landscape,
utilities, drainage, this kind of stuff. We redesigned at a
Town Council, tried to be more respectful of the neighbors,
moved common areas around, redesigned the buildings, and
redesigned the porches. Came back to the Planning
Commission with a new design, tried to be more respectful
of the neighbors, met with the neighbors. Here we go; we're
going fast. Changed the windows on the back, make sure you
can't look into the neighbor's yard, moved it so it's 37'
away from the neighbors.
Okay, so I'm done. We've worked hard and this
isn't something that just came about. Now, what were we
asked to do tonight?
Shane Siemer is here, and he's filled out a
speaker card. He works for Colbalt Power. This is what they
do. They evaluate how much sun is incident on a spot and
see how they're going to generate power with that, so I
don't have to defend this, because this isn't what I do,
but he'll be able to answer the questions you might have.
Basically he looked at two types of studies. He
went to the properties; looked at a Solmetric SunEye
reading taken in everybody's yards —and thank you to the
neighbors for letting us in —and then he did a computer-
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generated model to verify that. There may have been some
error in the readings, the wind was blowing, this kind of
thing.
Correlated that data over the whole year, and
that's important. It's not just one when you go. You can't
just go in the winter or the fall, you've got to look at
the whole year, and it also measures for weather effects.
Basically he was able to conclude that the losses of sun in
those neighbors' yard would be between less then 1% and
1.5%.
To me, that's conclusive. Even if it's different
by a factor of three, we're still at 3.5-4%. This is 20%,
30%, 40%, 50%, nowhere near that, so I feel very confident
that we're not going to be casting a lot of shadow on them.
Now, certain days during the year when the sun is
really low, of course it's going to cast a shadow, and if
you know anything about how the sun works, when it's low in
the west it's going to cast a shadow. So anyway, Shane will
help you with your questions, and we feel really great
about those numbers.
I also want to address here some of the things
you're going to hear tonight. You're going to hear some
neighbors talking about the fact that they have two-story
homes that are close to the fence. We've got some neighbors
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at 13' from the fence; they have two-story homes. We're
surrounded by two-story development. They going to tell us
that well, it's okay, we got ours in; we're 13' from the
property line, but it's not okay for you to be 37' from the
property line and have two-story. So there's sort of a
double standard you're going to hear.
You're going to hear how their rights are maybe
more important than the rights of this property owner.
You're also going to hear potentially from a
gentleman who's got a forest between himself and our
property and that there's going to be a lot of sun lost,
and there's just a lot of screening there, so it's going to
be very hard to imagine how there's just going to be a ton
of sun lost.
You're going to hear also people claiming that
this is a single -story neighborhood, and if you look
around, this site is surrounded by 96% two-story
development, excluding the front of the street.
I think these things are coming out because the
neighbors are, rightfully so, nervous about development
next to them and they don't want something there. We keep
working with them trying to figure out what's going to work
best, and they don't want to play ball. After two-and-a-
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half years it really feels like what they want to say is
not in our backyard.
On a positive note, I think this is a great
development. I think we tried really hard; we've worked
through the system two -and -a -half years. It's a nice
looking thing. It may not be perfect, but it's a legal use.
You can go through the charts and see that you can put a
condo on a C-1.
CHAIR BURCH: You're time is up.
CHRIS KUMMERER: Thank you. I'm happy to address
those questions. Thank you for looking at our project
again.
CHAIR BURCH: Thanks. Does anyone have any
questions for the Applicant? Commissioner Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I think you went into
this, but the number of people that are opposing the
project, as some of the other Commissioners are, troubles
me. Can you identify any resident in the east neighborhood
behind that has offered to support the project in the
current form?
CHRIS KUMMERER: In the current form. We have
spoken a resident on one of the courts who was in support
of the project, not here tonight, so we don't have anybody
to bring forward, no.
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CHAIR BURCH: I'm going to ask a question. In
reviewing some of our notes from the last one I actually
had taken away that there were two items that we were going
to look for from you tonight.
One was the solar study, which thank you very
much for getting that done; that helps us a lot.
But the second was in knowing the issues that
you're having with the back neighbors, and obviously after
two -and -a -half years I think we all realized there's a
gridlock, we had discussed with you some articulation with
the second floor, of moving that floor plate in, stepping
it back or something. I'm not seeing anything addressed in
this packet. Did you do any of that?
CHRIS KUMMERER: As regards to the solar access,
those moves really don't make a difference.
CHAIR BURCH: It was more about the privacy.
There were two issues that we had from the last one.
CHRIS KUMMERER: The back is well articulated. If
you'd like to look at the designs in particular, we can
spend some time there. We have overhangs, low roofs, high
roofs, and there's a slide here that shows that. Let's see.
That was really the problem with the first design
where we had a wall in the back, and so we tried to take
that into consideration in this revision and the one before
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where it's articulated and where it's broken up with
overhangs.
So this is the rear view, and each unit has
architecture to it. It's not a wall, whereas previously I
think that was a deficiency of the project. Now what we did
do is we changed all these windows so you have to get up on
your tip toes if you really want to peek at somebody. Then
we have variation in the wall, so you see it sets back.
This is an overhang here over a door. This is a low roof.
This is set back, again. Trying to treat these a little bit
like you would a front facade. So I feel that this is quite
textural in that each building has this kind of
articulation. So here you've got brackets, different
materials, different slopes.
CHAIR BURCH: I'm more interested in the setback
of the planes, so could you give us a ballpark? Like if I
was looking at the second one from the left, obviously
you've got a front plane and I appreciate the windows are
moved up, but can you give me a ballpark on what the
distance between the front plane, middle, to the last would
be?
CHRIS KUMMERER: For example, on Unit 5 we've got
a 5' difference. So let's see, Unit 5 is here, so from this
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plane here to this plan here, that's a 5' difference, for
example.
CHAIR BURCH: Okay.
CHRIS KUMMERER: And then this overhangs 1', so
there's an offset there.
CHAIR BURCH: Okay.
CHRIS KUMMERER: That was what came up initially,
and I think it was a very valid point and a fair point. We
had a big wall, and that didn't fly, and I think our
reaction was to try to get a lot of architecture back.
CHAIR BURCH: Okay, thank you. Any other
questions? Commissioner Kane.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Just to reframe what the
Chair was said. The way I see it, in our last meeting we
had all of these issues coming down and down and down and
down and down, and maybe we were left with an issue on the
table about sunlight and shadows, any maybe that was just
it, maybe we were that close. I felt there was some energy
on the Commission that I wish we could resolve this. We
took a break, didn't we, and you talked to your people and
came back and said yes, I agree to waive the timeframe, I
agree to do this, because we're going to go back and look
at this, and the condition under which you went back to
look at this was to study this shade and shadow impacts to
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the neighbors and return with potential solutions as needed
to address these impacts and removing and modifying...
So what I'm saying, Mr. Kummerer, is we got
awfully close, and we took a couple of weeks for you to
come up with something. Slope a roof, paint it non -
reflective brown, make the grass shorter, and you've kind
of come back with nothing but a study to tell us why you
were right and why they are wrong. If I don't even have a
cookie, I wonder why we wasted the two weeks.
CHRIS KUMMERER: If I understood correctly, maybe
that's just us not understanding the task, but that was "as
needed" it says in there. If it has a dramatic impact on
the neighbors, come up with some solutions. That's how I
read it. Does it have a dramatic impact? Is 1% of the sun
that would be incident upon those backyards a dramatic
impact? I don't think so. So maybe that's a
misunderstanding, but the sense that I got when talking
with Shane here is if we move a unit back a foot, it
doesn't impact that calculation, because the sun is so low
at that time it's not going to affect their loss. So I
don't think those moves, given those numbers, are going to
help us.
CHAIR BURCH: All right, any other questions?
Commissioner Hanssen.
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COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: It wasn't necessarily
specified exactly this way, the direction from the last
meeting, but if you read a lot of the neighbors' comments I
think almost all of them reference the idea of either
reducing the number of units or making some of the units
single -story. I know you had made comments previously, but
I just want to ask the question again and just say is that
a non -starter for you guys to consider those two things?
CHRIS KUMMERER: Maybe I'm not the best to answer
that, and Shawn can discuss that as well, but we have
discussed that over time. I think we all understand this
market. People's property values have increased and the
land values have increased. At some point it doesn't make
sense to come out and put single -story units when someone
pays a ton of money for a property, so that's working
against that.
The other thing working against that obviously is
the Association of Bay Area Governments has a goal for the
Town. We've got to provide 600 more units in the next
couple of years, and somehow it's going to have to be met
and density is the way to go, so you're going to have
height. I don't know if it's a deal breaker or not, maybe
Shawn can answer that, but that's been our answer in the
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past. There's pressure because of the cost of the land and
the value, so that single -story may not fly.
CHAIR BURCH: All right, do we have any other
questions? Okay, thank you, Mr. Kummerer. We will now
invite comments from members of the public. If you haven't
turned in a speaker card, please do so now. If you are
called to speak, please remember that you have three
minutes. Be sure to adjust the microphone, speak directly
into it, and state your name and your address for the
record. Again, you have three minutes. There's a yellow
warning light that will come on that will let you know that
you only have 30 seconds remaining.
I'm going to call Shane Siemer up. I believe,
Shane, that you are going to represent the Applicant to
discuss the solar study.
SHANE SIEMER: My name is Shane Siemer; I live at
2627 Almaden Road in San Jose.
I am a solar system designer for Colbalt Power
Systems. I was asked to do a shade study on the Union
Orchards development. What I did was, using the Solmetric
SunEye 210, which is the industry standard for determining
the amount of solar access a site will receive, I took
readings.
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I did two different forms of a solar study on the
developments and the existing homes. The Solmetric SunEye
was the first, and the second was a 3D model and Skelion
shading software. Both of these devices use Google Earth
and geographic location to determine the sun path and
exactly how much shade a site will get from the surrounding
buildings and trees and fences.
In each backyard I took two readings. I tried to
take them at sites such as lawns and areas around windows
and places where there might be some concern about shade. I
did two different scenarios for each reading: the baseline
and new construction.
The baseline reading was taken with all of the
story poles removed, so this was existing solar access at
these sites.
The second new construction reading was done with
the new homes in the readings causing shade. You can see
here that in this scenario there is a percentage of solar
access for each month, and there were several months where
there was a slight change, but overall that reading
typically was within 1% difference between the two
readings.
These are the results from the computer modeling,
and again, you'll see that there are slight changes based
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on the baseline existing scenario and the new construction
scenario.
This is actually a reading from the Solmetric
SunEye, and what you see here is morning on the left side,
evening on the right side, winter on the top, and summer on
the bottom. All the green represents shade such as trees
and buildings, and the yellow represents sun. That
difference right there that you can see on the right corner
is the difference between what the solar access was before
and after the development.
CHAIR BURCH: Thank you, Mr. Siemer. Do we have
any questions? Commissioner Badame.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: I can probably agree that
you've got state of the art equipment that can graph out
percentages and the loss of sunlight over an annual basis,
but our concern, and I believe it's the industry standard,
is looking at different times of year season -wise and hour
times.
In December I'm really concerned, because that's
when we have the greatest significant loss of sun where
it's most important for our energy bills. Could your
equipment have graphed out on an hourly basis December 21st
from 9:00 until 3:00 the hourly loss that could have been
provided to us so that we could have a grasp on that?
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SHANE SIEMER: Sure, and you can actually see
this right here. What you see here, all these lines are
hours of the day, so if you wanted to look at December,
this would be twelve, one, two, three, to four, to five.
This is a sun chart in this location and those are the
hours. In this actual picture there's already a tree there
that's shading the site.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: I couldn't see the hours on
there from here, but can you tell me for December 21st how
many hours or minutes will the neighbors be impacted? I'll
throw out an address: 259 Howes Court.
SHANE SIEMER: I can, and I have the data in my
computer if you'd like to take a look at it
VICE CHAIR BADAME: I would, because I'm not
looking at averages and percentages; I want to know actual
time.
SHANE SIEMER: Sure.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Okay, thank you.
SHANE SIEMER: None of these tools will give you
the granularity of a day, because we're talking about 8,760
data points, and that's about how many hours there are in a
year. What it can show you is percentages by month. So is
that granular enough?
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VICE CHAIR BADAME: Well, I think the Planning
Department requirements are that you actually provide the
difference between 9:00 o'clock, 12:00 o'clock, and 3:00
o'clock, and I don't believe we asked for annual
percentages, is that correct?
JOEL PAULSON: It's not, but they have provided a
shadow study in the plans that accounts for that. It's not
hourly; it's from 9:00 to 3:00.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Okay. So I believe at the
last hearing I heard ten minutes shadowing on that
particular date for the 259 house, is that correct?
SHANE SIEMER: That's correct, yeah. Honestly,
it's such a small amount of time that with these devices
it's really hard to actually get that amount of precision.
The way that I can calculate that was basically the sun
moves 15 degrees every one hour, so that difference between
where the height of the fence is right now and where the
height of the story poles is is about seven degrees, so
that would be about half an hour at that specific time.
Now, when we're talking about the ridgeline of a
house the sun is going to set behind that ridgeline one day
a year, because obviously the sun moves throughout the
year, so for that one day it might be 4% and a week later
it might be 3%. Does that make sense?
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VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you.
CHAIR BURCH: Do we have any other questions?
Commissioner Kane.
COMMISSIONER KANE: So one would look at your
conclusion on page 17 and it suggests this could have a
serious impact on the outcome of the case. I'll confess
I've read it twice and that's not my kind of science; I
didn't get a lot of it.
I'm wondering Mr. Siemer, and forgive me, maybe
this is the hundred pound elephant in the room and nobody
wants to ask the question, but was the report written by a
PhD, an MS, or was it a technical researcher? Tell us a
little bit about your qualifications to make a report that
could be this important.
SHANE SIEMER: Sure. Like I said, what I do is I
am a solar systems designer, so every day I go out onto
people's properties and I analyze their solar access, and
from that information determine the amount of production
the solar system will produce, and from that the amount of
energy and bill savings that customer will get. So my job
is to go out there and typically within 1% error margins
determine exactly the amount of kilowatt-hours a person can
generate from a solar system.
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I've been doing this for four years. I do about
200 solar system studies a year.
CHAIR BURCH: All right, so do we have any other
questions? Seeing none, thank you. All right, next is Mr.
Liu.
SHIGONG LIU: I am Shigong Liu; I live in 259
Howes Court.
In the last meeting we talked about the sun and
shade, and I remember Mr. Kummerer talked about it would
affect 2% of the sun, about ten minutes. The recent solar
study shows (inaudible) to say it only affects 1% now. I
think it becomes only five minutes.
But in reality I took a picture in my master
bedroom. We can see from the window when we look out, the
whole window is almost blocked. Now the sun here is in the
corner. I moved a little bit, I tried to make this not so
bright, because in last meeting if we put it together, we
can never see the poles. So the second picture, this is
4:56. And this is the third picture I took at 5:05. We can
still see the sun. So from the beginning, 4:13 to 5:05, is
about 50 minutes. It's not like five minutes or ten
minutes.
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So I think sometime this (inaudible) solar study,
but in reality I don't think it's always so reliable. The
pictures will show it.
Another thing is in last year's meeting I think
the Town Council made a great decision to deny the
application the first time because they have eight houses,
and we all know it is too high. With eight houses, two
stories, just like if I stand here, you'll say you are too
high, you block the view, and you can see everything. I
didn't make the decision to make like eight houses to four
houses or something, I just move back a little bit. Do you
see any difference?
I think the situation is all the same as before,
so I think based on last year's decision, and if the
situation doesn't change, we should keep the same situation
as before. We should not approve this kind of building
(inaudible) unless you keep the eight houses and the two
stories in this small build, especially too close to the
neighborhood and the (inaudible) the sunshine, and also
affects the privacy.
I think (inaudible) please come to take a look in
our neighborhood. Thank you very much.
CHAIR BURCH: Thank you. Any questions for the
speaker? Commissioner O'Donnell.
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COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Could I see your photo
of 4:56 again, please?
SHIGONG LIU: 4:56, yeah. This is 4:56.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Would it be fair to say
that if that were a single -story building the sun would
have still been blocked?
SHIGONG LIU: If single -story I think it will be
blocked much less.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Well, it's either
blocked or it's not, and the way I'm looking at it now, if
you had a 10' or 12' single -story building, that would be
blocked.
SHIGONG LIU: Actually, currently this is a two-
story; the poles, the top is here.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Right, and I'm just
trying to cut it in half.
SHIGONG LIU: Oh, yeah, if they cut it in half,
probably it would still block, but we can get some sun. But
if all is two-story, we almost get no more sunshine. Is not
just 10% or 20%, it's about I think 80-90% now. Our
sunshine will be blocked.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Did you figure out what
a single -story building would do as to the shadowing at the
various times? If we're being asked to have single -stories,
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you would want to make sure they're effective in what you
want, and I don't see that there, so did you try to figure
out what a single -story would do?
SHIGONG LIU: Sorry, I didn't really study that.
I think the single -story probably is somewhere here. These
are around the same position probably, I'm not so sure.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Thank you.
CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Talesfore.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Thank you. Just for
clarification, I see some trees. Now, are those trees on
your property?
SHIGONG LIU: No, this is in the property
(inaudible) to develop.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Okay. They look like
evergreen trees, is the correct? None of those trees are on
your property?
SHIGONG LIU: (Inaudible) in the picture, no. And
the trees, in fact, even the trees doesn't block the
sunshine that much. If it's the whole block building, it
will totally block.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: I see. Thank you.
CHAIR BURCH: Any other questions? Commissioner
Hanssen.
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COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I probably should have
asked this before, but your master bedroom is on the first
floor, not the second floor, right?
SHIGONG LIU: This is the first floor.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: This is the first floor.
So you're looking at (inaudible)?
SHIGONG LIU: Master bedroom, yeah.
CHAIR BURCH: Any other questions? No? Thank you
very much. Chi -Ping Siu. Please be sure to pull that
microphone down to you and state your name and address for
the record.
CHI -PING SIU: Yes, my name is Chi -Ping Siu at
261 Howes Court. I live east of the site.
I wanted to say that we have been giving support
to the developer. From what I remember, we met in June, and
then we had a meeting in December, and then June again,
December again (inaudible) meetings. Every time we sit down
and talk with the developers I will tell them to build less
house, but of course due to financial reasons they say it
is not financially viable to do a single -story house or
this, and so that was a (inaudible) for us. So I would like
the Commission to give them more direction on what they
should pursue, because it's not going to go away.
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The reason we have to do this shadow analysis is
because of the two-story buildings. If they are single -
story, we have nothing to do. I think that this two-story
house, too dense, is a major issue.
I have a pool, and I took pictures also. I would
see like a half hour sunset earlier, so like 5:00 o'clock
it's blocked until 5:30. I would calculate it as like 200
hours a year, or 5%, so for my pool we see less sunshine.
So this is like more than what's the magic numbers that the
previous gentleman put forward.
I also wanted to say that this is a conditional
use permit, so although the developer has satisfied all the
(inaudible) that they say they have satisfied, I think they
still have conditions that we want to make. Then I would
think that satisfying the existing owner's rights or
benefits should be addressed more. And that's it.
CHAIR BURCH: Thank you. Any questions?
Commissioner Erekson.
CHARLES EREKSON: So your house is a one-story
house, is that correct?
CHI -PING SIU: That's correct.
CHARLES EREKSON: If I'm facing your house, the
house immediately to the left of you is a two-story house,
is that correct?
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CHI -PING SIU: That's correct.
CHARLES EREKSON: When you purchased the home,
the home to your immediate left, was it already a two-story
house?
CHI -PING SIU: Yes, yes.
CHARLES EREKSON: How long have you lived in your
house?
CHI -PING SIU: Fifteen years.
CHARLES EREKSON: Can you give me some sense of
the shadowing from the house next door to you onto your
house?
CHI -PING SIU: We are facing west. I don't see
any shadowing, because when I go to the yard I see the
construction site right now, the planning site, so the sun
actually sets... I mean 259 doesn't shadow me at all, so only
the new construction will give me shadow. I actually did
some calculations during the winter solstice, so my
estimate is 240 degrees, which is a clear view into the
construction. And then until the other solstice, the summer
solstice, it's 300 degrees and I'm still seeing the
construction site. So all my shadowing will come from the
new construction.
CHARLES EREKSON: May I re -ask my question then,
to be sure?
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CHI -PING SIU: Yes.
CHARLES EREKSON: Because I've been on the site
six times, I've been on your thing six times, different
times of the day since the last meeting, so it's a sample
of a two -week period of time as opposed to 52 weeks. You
live there 52 weeks a year, so are you saying —I have a very
simple question —there is no shadowing at any time during
the year from the house that's immediately adjacent to you
to the left of you?
CHI -PING SIU: To the left, I don't notice it.
CHARLES EREKSON: You don't think so? Okay,
that's perfect. You answered the question, thank you.
CHAIR BURCH: I'm going to ask you to stay for
just one quick minute. I've asked Staff to pull up the
drawing that shows the cul de sac with the homes. As we
have the homeowners come up, I think it's going to help
everybody if we can reference on a drawing of which home is
which, and as we're asking questions. So they're going to
pull up the cul de sac. Perfect. I'm going to ask that you
just point to which property is yours. Okay. Yeah, thank
you.
CHI -PING SIU: I'm one of the four houses that
are adjacent to the site, and then I have my house further
back, and the pool is right next to the site.
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CHAIR BURCH: Right. All right, there we go. So
that is your house, okay. Thank you. I just wanted to point
that out, and I think as we have people come up, if we can
keep this up.
Do you have another question, Commissioner
O'Donnell.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I do. It was helpful
looking at that photo. If I see your house correctly, how
far is the back of your house from the property line of the
developer?
CHI -PING SIU: Well, you see that this is a
triangular lot, so this is the fence that's bordering the
site. I intersect the site at one part only. So if I come
out here, it says 102', which I think might be correct.
Yes, it's about 100' to this house. This is 102 here. I
think it's correct, so it's about 100'.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: So is the shadow you're
concerned with a shadow reaching your house, or is the
shadow reaching your pool.
CHI -PING SIU: To my pool. If I come here, I took
pictures this morning and then this afternoon on the
shadowing, so at 5:00 o'clock I'm blocked by one of these
two houses.
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COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: You took the picture
from where?
CHI -PING SIU: From here, from here.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: So there is a shadow
there at 5:00 o'clock in the evening today?
CHI -PING SIU: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Thank you.
CHAIR BURCH: All right, any other questions?
Great, thank you. John Yeager.
JOHN YEAGER: By the way, the first gentleman who
spoke is this man here, and I'm over here.
CHAIR BURCH: I need you to state your name and
your address for the record.
JOHN YEAGER: John Yeager, 285 Hershner Court.
CHAIR BURCH: Thank you.
JOHN YEAGER: I hope you've had a chance to see
my map showing how this development doesn't fit in the
neighborhood, and this will be the first time to build like
this next to existing homes. Two-story in general is only
allowed next to commercial property.
The solar report is misleading without building
offs. Building any number reported by a study like this
would sound small. The study attempts to measure light at
just two points in the yard. What it doesn't measure is
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other places, including light shining into our houses. He
didn't take the device into our house. A true study would
measure where the sun goes behind the new construction and
any trees as compared to where we'd see the sun without
this construction.
This is what the residents did. We've recorded
what time the sun dips below the orange, and we've recorded
what time the sun dips below the hills. Our results show 45
minutes of shadowing from November to late February. You
could see this if you came by to our property instead of
just his.
The back of my home faces right towards the sun
in the winter. I get lots of sunlight shining into my house
before sunset, lighting up my sunroom, dining room and
living room. It's quite delightful, and it will be gone.
These large condos will block it.
Also, the sight of the wall of condos will make
our properties less desirable. If you approve this, all of
Union Avenue down to Thomas Drive can become two-story.
Two -five -eight Union can do this, why can't we? Starting
with the Los Gatos Teen Center next door. Thomas Avenue
residents are also concerned about this. I think you
received some of their letters. We don't want these two-
story homes in our mostly single -story neighborhood.
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I know the Town wants more affordable housing,
and hence the BMP. Once homes on Union change to two-story,
this goal will be defeated, as families currently in those
homes won't be able to afford them anymore, so you'll gain
one BMP lower cost home at 258 Union now, and you'll lose
more along Union over time as these properties price up.
Please ask the builder to put fewer homes on the property.
Also, the Applicant likes to mention it's been a
long time since the first application. Let's remember, the
first proposal had a deck overlooking the property right
here, into his bedroom.
Also, I want to point out that Shigong's property
is less than half two-story. It's only over the garage, so
the two-story portion of his property is just this. This is
all single -story. So he likes to make a big deal about how
it's so two-story; it's about one -thirds of the property,
not full two-story like all his properties. That's all.
CHAIR BURCH: All right, do we have any
questions? Commissioner Kane.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Mr. Yeager, we have a letter
that begins, "At the last Planning meeting I made an error
thinking I had five minutes and not three to speak."
JOHN YEAGER: Yeah, I spoke too fast.
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COMMISSIONER KANE: No, my question is, is this
your letter.
JOHN YEAGER: Yes, it is. I included it in full.
COMMISSIONER KANE: It didn't identify. I was
guessing it was yours. Thank you.
JOHN YEAGER: Sure.
CHAIR BURCH: Do we have any other questions? No?
Thank you. Jeff Loughridge.
JEFF LOUGHRIDGE: Hi, my name is Jeff Loughridge,
109 Paseo Laura. I'm not a neighbor, and I'm also a member
of the Housing Element Advisory Committee, but I'm speaking
tonight as a resident.
My first thought regarding 258 Union is to follow
what the General Plan says. If changing from the General
Plan designation seems absolutely necessarily, then amend
the General Plan. The most appropriate General Plan land
use designation for 258 Union is Medium -Density
Residential, 5-12 units per acres. The most appropriate
zoning district is RM, 5-12 units per acre.
Amending the General Plan and Zoning Map will
allow the Commission flexibility in assuring the project is
a good fit for Los Gatos. It will allow the Commission to
address neighbors' concerns, be consistent with the General
Plan goals and policies for residential development, and be
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consistent with the standards of the zoning district as
well as other applicable Zoning Code sections for parking
and over space. In addition, it may be possible to
eliminate the need for a CUP.
Amending the General Plan and zoning maps will
keep the proposed project use consistent with both its
General Plan designation and zoning district. By amending
the General Plan to Medium -Density Residential the proposed
project will be consistent with its underlying General Plan
designation and with the pattern of General Plan
designation in the areas along Union on both sides, and
will allow for the retention of the BMP.
By amending the zoning map to RM, Multi -Family
Residential, 5-12 units per acre, the proposed project will
be consistent with the regulations of its zoning district
rather than having cherry picked standards from various
zones to make it work with a CUP. The combination of Medium
Density and RN-5:12 will also allow for a better transition
between residential to the north, south and east that
reflects both density and intensity of the proposed project
while providing the Planning Commission the discretion to
choose detached or traditional attached units as well as
discretion to define square footage of small family homes.
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So if a change from the General Plan is planned,
then please do it the correct way that will protect our
town's processes: Amend the General Plan and the Zoning
Map. A Conditional Use Permit is not the proper way to
handle this, and while we do have a plan for 619 housing
units for this year's Housing Element, they need to be
affordable; they can't just be houses. So the only one that
would apply would be the BMP unit. That's it.
CHAIR BURCH: Okay. Do we have any questions?
Commissioner Kane.
COMMISSIONER KANE: You mentioned the RM, 5-12
per acre, and also that a CUP may not be the way to
approach this question. I have concerns about the CUP, but
if I understand the RM, 5-12 per acre, the land involved
here is about .75 acres, and if you multiply the .75 times
the high side, which is 12, you come out with nine, which,
unless Staff can correct me, I think still meets the
formula: Eight houses instead of nine. That's if we apply
the RM-5:12. Mr. Paulson?
JOEL PAULSON: The current proposal is within the
density of the RM-5:12 density range.
JEFF LOUGHRIDGE: But it's going about it by a
CUP. I mean what does the General Plan call for? Isn't it
Neighborhood Commercial? So why would you change from
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Neighborhood Commercial to a CUP to get the same
designation that you're saying would apply, but it allows
our processes to take better care of the land use in Los
Gatos by not using a CUP to circumvent what's in the
General Plan?
COMMISSIONER KANE: Thank you.
CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: This may be a question for
Staff as opposed to Mr. Loughridge. Quite a number of
residents in the east portion behind the property are
suggesting four houses, so if I understand that correctly,
and RM-5:12 wouldn't be appropriate in that situation, it
would be what, R-1:8? I'm just curious, from your
perspective is it more the issue of the CUP versus the
residential zoning...
JEFF LOUGHRIDGE: It absolutely has to do with
that.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: ...or the specifics of the
five to twelve versus something less than five?
JEFF LOUGHRIDGE: Yes. It has to do with the
general land use and how we designate land use issues in
Town. We constantly have planned developments and CUPs to
circumvent our General Plan while the appropriate method is
to amend the General Plan and change the zoning map.
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CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Badame, and then
Commissioner O'Donnell.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: My question is more for
Staff, following up on a previous question. If it is RM-
5:12 would the FAR still be within the range of what we're
getting now?
JOEL PAULSON: The FAR?
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Yes, the floor to area ratio.
JOEL PAULSON: Depending on the type of product,
if they did attached, there is no FAR.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Correct.
JOEL PAULSON: So if they did that, the coverage
I think generally changes for those types of units. The
issue currently is multifold, but current Zoning Code
allows condominiums in a C-1 zone. I understand Mr.
Loughridge's comments and other comments that other
speakers have made and this is precisely one of the issues
that will be addressed.
The Council has appointed a Planning Commission
Study Committee, and one of the issues that they will be
looking at are some of these perceived inconsistencies
where with our Zoning Code in the C-1, C-2, CH, almost all
commercial zones, we allow residential uses with a
Conditional Use Permit. So that's one of the things that
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will be addressed. Our current code allows condominiums in
the C-1 zone.
The other challenge that is raised is if you want
to do a zone change for this property it really would be R-
1:8, because otherwise you end up spot zoning, cherry
picking a zoning designation when there is not a similar or
the same zoning designation immediately adjacent. Spot
zoning is not something that we have been historically
interested in pursuing.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: So R-1:8 would allow for four
homes?
JOEL PAULSON: R-1:8 with standard subdivision
would allow for three homes.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Three homes. Thank you.
CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner O'Donnell.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I have a question for
you or Staff; so let me ask Staff first. There's been a
statement that we're not being consistent with the General
Plan. Could you comment on that?
JOEL PAULSON: The current zoning allows for the
CUP, and I would look to the Town Attorney, and that's
something that may be changed in the future, not
specifically because of this project, but because of the
PDs and CUPs that Mr. Loughridge raised and others have
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raised. Once we do make those changes and have those
considerations before the Planning Commission and Council,
then those determinations will be made.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: But at the moment would
you say that it is consistent with the General Plan?
JOEL PAULSON: We believe it is consistent with
the General Plan, because the Zoning Code permits
condominiums in the C-1 zone.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Thank you. I don't have
a question, thank you.
CHAIR BURCH: All right, Patricia Scannura.
PATRICIA SCANNURA: My name is Pat Scannura; I
live at 255 Howes Court.
This picture shows my backyard, which is narrower
in the back to the property than my neighbor's house, but
honestly, if you had all come over to my house you would
have seen that. At the past three meetings that we were
here we all invited members to come and visit our homes and
see from our perspective. So in that I'm kind of
disappointed, because you asked us to work with ValleyOne,
and we did. We bent over backwards to work with ValleyOne,
contrary to what I've been hearing this evening. Basically
it's very difficult to show in a picture the impact to our
homes unless you come out and you see it yourself. Now, a
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couple of people have come to visit our other neighbor's
home. No one came to my house. No one extended an email or
a phone call, which I am disappointed. I've lived here for
ten years, I'm a taxpayer, and I have certain expectations
too.
So do I feel sorry for this guy that bought this
piece of property? No, I don't. He bought a piece of
property; he doesn't even know what he can build on it, so
basically I don't feel sorry for him.
Okay, here's another picture, but yet again, you
really cannot see the impact unless you come and you visit
our homes. My problem with this development is the quantity
of homes on this piece of property. I have a two-story
home; I'm not opposed to two stories. I am opposed to a
piece of property where they smash and jam as many units as
possible in so he can make a big profit, and then we're
stuck in the neighborhood looking at all these units.
And quite frankly, I'm opposed to a below market
value, because I don't believe in redistribution of real
estate, okay? Thank you.
CHAIR BURCH: Do we have any questions?
Commissioner Kane.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Just a statement. No, I did
not ring your doorbell, but yes, I have walked the subject
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property, and I've driven by your house twice, once with
Commissioner Talesfore.
PATRICIA SCANNURA: You cannot see unless you
come into our backyards.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Yes, ma'am. What I was
looking for was story poles, observation from the street,
and I did not ring your bell, you're right.
PATRICIA SCANNURA: You can ring my bell. Not the
song, my doorbell.
CHAIR BURCH: Thank you.
PATRICIA SCANNURA: We need a little humor.
CHAIR BURCH: Shawn Wang, please.
SHAWN WANG: My name is Shawn Wang and I'm the
managing member of ValleyOne Investment, LLC, and I live at
20553 Montalvo Lane in Saratoga.
I think Chris and Shane will spend some time to
answer the issues the neighbors have just raised. I would
just have some concluding statement before you guys make a
decision. The only thing I want you guys to consider before
you make the decision tonight is to think about the
following three questions.
First of all, I know that you received some
letters from the neighbors after the last meeting; one is
from Mr. Siu, and the other five letters from a different
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street, which is several hundred feet away. They barely
have any attachment to this development.
Four of the letters were just copied and pasted,
and one letter implied that our project is the same as the
neighboring San Jose project, which we are not. We designed
this project from day one to fit the Los Gatos
neighborhood. The density is lower, and our design, as you
can see that Chris just showed, is totally different. We
have all unique features attached to each single unit. So
this is a Los Gatos project, it's not a San Jose project.
The fact I just raised (inaudible) I want you
guys to all think about how many of these residents who
wrote a letter have ever looked into our project. I doubt
they have spent any time to look into the project before
they jumped to the conclusion that they don't like our
project.
The second question I want to ask you think about
is what if today we are presenting you with a project with
12 units? You probably would ask us to reduce the density
and cut some units. So this is exactly what we have thought
about at day one when we took over the project. We
carefully thought over we know 12 units is too dense.
That's why we picked a medium -density project, designed
eight units with one BMP unit. We didn't play the game; we
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just know this will fit best into the neighborhood from day
one.
The last question I want to ask you to think
about is within the four neighbors that we have that have
raised concerns today... Thank you.
CHAIR BURCH: Sorry, your time is done.
Commissioner Kane.
COMMISSIONER KANE: What was your last question?
SHAWN WANG: The last question I wanted to ask
you to think about is we have five neighbors who are
attached to our lot, and one neighbor at the very beginning
when we talked to him, he said he's fine, and of the four
neighbors who all come here today, two of them have two-
story homes with a much larger living area than us, and
they have the nonconforming setbacks. They are only like
13' or 15' away from the fence, while we are like 37' away
from the fence.
And two other single -story homes, we are close to
200' away from the nearest home on our side, so the impact
they are claiming now, such as the shadow, is very minimum.
They claim the 40 minutes of impact, or 50 minutes of the
impact, and now, today, at this period of time, only
converting into about 7% daily sunlight now. But during the
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summer, since the sun sets at a different way, our building
will have no impact to them.
COMMISSIONER KANE: I have a clear sense of your
last question.
SHAWN WANG: Okay, thank you very much.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Thank you.
CHAIR BURCH: Any other questions? Commissioner
Badame.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: I believe at one point in
time Staff might have made a recommendation that you attach
some of the rear units, maybe two of them, is that correct?
I believe I read it in a Staff Report.
JOEL PAULSON: I believe that was a
recommendation from Staff at one time.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Why wouldn't you follow that,
or consider attaching some of these units? You could still
get the eight, nine units that you're requesting, maybe
less than some of the square footage, and you could still
get the units that you're looking for by attaching them.
SHAWN WANG: Here is what we have thought. We
think the condo, both detached or attached condo form are
the legal form, detaching them actually provides a better
solution to the neighbors. I don't think the neighbors want
to see attached units; they prefer detached units. That's
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what we thought. We thought even the buyers; they prefer to
have detached units rather than attached the units. That's
what we thought.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you.
CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I wanted to ask you a
question about your comments about the neighbors on Thomas
Drive. My children went to school at Stratford School for
so many years and I've driven through that neighborhood
hundreds of times, including today, and I don't know why
you would say that the neighbors on Thomas Drive aren't
part of that same neighborhood, because you've got Howes
that goes through the neighborhood, and all of those courts
attached to it as well as Thomas Drive, so maybe you could
comment on that.
And then also I wanted to say that I personally
have driven on Thomas Drive, and today I was picking my kid
up from soccer practice and I could see the story poles
from at least one place on Thomas Drive, so I don't know
that it's fair to say that they're not impacted at all, but
I can see that they're not in this drawing here.
SHAWN WANG: Yes, I understand your concern. If I
live on Thomas Drive and I was notified at the beginning of
the project, I'd probably attend a meeting and raise my
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concern. But the point I wanted to make here is the letter
we received from the street is I think they were notified,
they never attended, and at this point they probably were
being told by somebody how to fix the format of email, just
copy and paste it and send it to us. So my point is they
haven't studied our project, and I think it's too rush to
jump to the conclusion that this project is not a Los Gatos
project, which is not true.
CHAIR BURCH: Any other questions? No? Thank you.
CHAIR BURCH: John Shepardson. No? All right, he
had one on here. Maureen Heberling.
MAUREEN HEBERLING: I'm Maureen Heberling; I live
at 291 Hershner Court. I've lived in my house for 46 years.
The lot at 258 Union Avenue does not directly
affect me, however, I am directly affected by the
townhouses that are in San Jose and directly behind me.
The last time I showed you pictures to give you
an idea of what the homeowners on Howes Court and Hershner
Court will see once homes are constructed, and add to that
I've been checking the shadow on my home from the
townhouses. As of 4:25 today the back of my home, and all
of my yard, and inside my master bedroom and my sunroom
were totally in shadow. There is 40' between my back wall
and the back wall of the townhouses behind me.
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The last time we met it seemed as though you
placed a lot of emphasis on money ValleyOne has invested.
Every one of the affected homeowners has also invested a
lot of money into their homes. The thing is that once the
new homes are constructed the neighbors have to live with
those permanent structures that will forever affect them in
loss of privacy, loss of value, and loss of quiet
enjoyment. It is not right that ValleyOne is allowed to
make money at the expense of the adjacent neighbors.
No one has ever said no homes. We've all
requested that the density be reduced, and even the Town
has said eight homes are too many. ValleyOne has ignored
all of us and has stated that they would build another
O'Shea's or a 12-15-unit condo if they do not get the
approval they want. This doesn't seem like they are working
with the neighbors or the Town.
The current design of eight homes does not have
safe areas for children to play. There is a very short
sidewalk going to the picnic area, and with driveways only
16' wide there will be problems with children playing or on
bikes and cars coming in and out. Playing along Union
Avenue is not safe, because cars travel very fast, and if a
bike or a ball were to go into the street on Union Avenue I
doubt if anyone could stop fast enough.
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I would like to see no more than four homes
constructed. There are two newer developments on Union
Avenue close to Blossom Hill, one on the west side, one on
the east side. Use those as your models for this
development rather than shoving a bunch of houses together
and having them look much like the existing townhouses
behind me in San Jose.
Los Gatos has always protected the neighborhoods.
Protect my neighbors and lets find a reasonable solution
that does not cause hardship to the existing homeowners.
CHAIR BURCH: Thank you. Any questions? I have
one. You made a statement in there that caused a little
alarm. You said that it had been stated that if they were
not able to move forward with the plan that they would
build another O'Shea's or 15 condos. Can you tell me what
context that was set in?
MAUREEN HEBERLING: The one they said
initially with laughter was, "If you don't like the eight
units, we'll put in another O'Shea's." And then most
recently within December we all met at the lot, and I asked
Shawn directly, I said, "Would you reduce the number of
units?" and he said, "No, and if we can't get the eight
unit approval, we will build a 12-15 unit condo," or,
"we'll request that."
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So I don't really feel that they have really
worked with the neighbors. We've all tried, and we're just
asking for something that is compatible with the
neighborhood.
CHAIR BURCH: Thank you. Any other questions? All
right, that was our last speaker card, so we're going to
give the Applicant an additional five minutes to respond to
the comments and items that were brought up. Mr. Kummerer.
I'm sorry, three minutes. Sorry. That's what happens when I
don't have my notes. Sorry, you have three minutes.
CHRIS KUMMERER: Thank you. I have a lot to say
in a little time. I guess for me what it comes down to is
we've heard a lot of things from the neighbors. I
understand their concerns; I'm not saying they're not
valid. The question I have is do we want to see this be
empty for 25 years more? I mean it's been empty for a long
time, nobody jumped on this, previous owner couldn't make
anything happen, this doesn't fly.
You get to make a decision what's going to
happen, and it seems like a reasonable proposal. In fact,
the RM-5:12 is what this project was designed for, so we're
talking about zoning changes. We met with Suzanne in the
beginning. That was the guidepost we were using, that
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density, that square footage; that's exactly what it was
designed for.
I know a lot of you don't like the CUP, but don't
punish the project is you don't like what's in the code.
This is straight from the code. You can use a CUP on C-1 to
build residential condominiums, so I hope that we weren't
unfairly made an example of when that is currently in the
code and it's been there for a long time.
I'll just turn it over to Shane. I think there's
a lot more to say, but I think that's the main point. I
mean it's taken a long time for somebody to propose
something on the site. If this goes away it may be another
25 years. Is that really in the best interest of the Town?
SHANE SIEMER: I'd just like to follow up on a
couple of the comments. My intent with the study was to be
impartial. I can absolutely go up there and take readings
from specific points and show no effect whatsoever from the
developments, and I can go to other places and show a lot
of effect. The entire study was designed to give an overall
effect of what these houses would do to the neighbors'
yards, and I think that's what it showed. We can all take a
look at very specific points and find areas where there is
45 minutes of shade and another area where there is ten. I
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think the overall effect was a little more important and
kind of told a better story. I'll turn it over to Shawn.
SHAWN WANG: I just want to address the final
thing that the one neighbor raised about if we are not
approved with this project we're going to build 15. This is
totally not true.
In December we met in the lot. We discussed about
the density. Obviously they asked me if we could reduce the
back and instead of four just do two, or cutting to the
single -story. I told them it's not feasible and that this
(inaudible) in the Town is medium range, it's nothing
dense, and I raised a number, because the previous owner
who sold the property to us had a plan that was 12-15
units.
CHAIR BURCH: Thank you for the clarification. Do
we have any final questions? Commissioner O'Donnell.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I'd like to ask a
question of your expert.
I want to make sure I understood you correctly.
When you were talking about trying to get a reasonable
balance, I understood that, but thought you also said you
could have selected spots on the adjacent properties where
there would be up to 45 minutes of effect?
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SHANE SIEMER: What I meant was yeah, at
different points of the... Whenever you take a reading like
this, wherever you take that reading there are so many
different factors that are going to change the way the
solar access is going to be reported; the height off the
ground, the closeness to the fence.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: But what I'm trying to
get at is some of the neighbors have said that their back
bedroom, or room or whatever, was more seriously impacted
than you had suggesting by 1%. So it almost sounds like
you're agreeing with him.
SHANE SIEMER: What the study showed was that
yes, at different times of the year different parts of each
house are going to be shaded at different percentages.
That's absolutely true.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: So the man that was
talking about his swimming pool would not be inconsistent
with what you're saying?
SHANE SIEMER: At specific times of the year it's
going to be shaded that much, and at other times of the
year it's going to be shaded a lot less; that was my point,
that it varies greatly over the full calendar year.
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COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: All right, well it does
seem to me therefore that you and the neighbors all agree.
Thank you.
CHRIS KUMMERER: Other questions? Commissioner
Talesfore.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Thank you. This is for
the architect. First of all, I'd like to say thank you for
the plans. They're very readable and I appreciate that, the
type, the tone of the print.
I was looking at the circulation. These questions
are going to be about circulation; it's on A1.0. One thing
I do focus on in developments like this are the safety
issues, and I have a few questions regarding that. I wanted
to clarify that I am reading that the width of the driveway
into the development is 16', and that's both egress and
ingress, correct?
CHRIS KUMMERER: Correct.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Okay, and then it goes
to 25', and then narrows to 22', and then 25' again?
CHRIS KUMMERER: Correct.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Okay, and then I wanted
to also verify that there is street parking almost up to
both curbs at the driveways, is that correct?
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CHRIS KUMMERER: That is shown schematically,
because that isn't on our property. We don't really control
what the parking situation is on Union.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Okay, but those are
parking?
CHRIS KUMMERER: Yeah, that's us assuming that
you park cars that large and you could park that many
there, but Public Works hasn't told us how if they would
stripe it or what, so it's an approximation.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: I'm confused about the
16'. It seems awfully small; in fact it's probably about
the size of my driveway.
CHRIS KUMMERER: That's straight from the Fire
Department.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: From the Fire
Department?
CHRIS KUMMERER: Yes.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Because I thought 18'
was for vehicles in and out, but you got 16'.
CHRIS KUMMERER: Yeah, this is directly from the
Fire Department. They reviewed it and this was the
requirement they were looking for. My thinking is those are
four units, and so it's not heavily trafficked, and so I
would hope that people are watching out for one another.
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Now, if we're getting this granular, I love it. I
love that we can talk actually about the design here.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Well, that's all the
questions I had.
CHRIS KUMMERER: So 18' would be fantastic.
That's not a problem on our side.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Then my other question
for is when I was watching the previous meeting,
Commissioner Burch asked about the pathway to get to the
common area, and with four and five bedrooms in these units
I would assume that there will be children occupying some
of these houses if this were to go forward. So I think her
question was where is there a pathway, and your answer, I
believe, was there was not, but that you thought that
because it was a small area that people would just look out
for each other. That's what I remember you saying.
CHRIS KUMMERER: Yes, I imagine I said that. We
don't have a sidewalk leading from each home to the common
area, that's correct.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: All right, thank you.
CHRIS KUMMERER: Commissioner Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I also had a question for
the architect. This pertains to a question I had at the
previous meeting. When asking about whom these units might
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be sold to I was given the answer it could be families or
it could be seniors. The question was raised about what
seniors would buy a unit that had all upstairs bedroom, and
I was told that all the units had at least one downstairs
bedrooms, but in fact there are three units, Units 2, 3 and
4, if I remember reading this thing correctly, that do not
have that.
I was looking at the General Plan over the
weekend, and we have such a huge need for senior housing,
and it dawned on me that if we could get comfortable with
the density that this might be a good place for seniors
that are downsizing, yet there are three out of eight units
that don't have a downstairs bedroom. So my question is how
hard would it be, if we could get comfortable with the
density, to modify those three units so that there was a
downstairs bedroom?
CHRIS KUMMERER: Thank you, yes, and I think we
clarified last meeting that I misspoke and we circled back
on that, that the five of them had the downstairs unit and
three didn't.
I would hope that if that were something that
would move the project forward we could work that out. It's
just a matter of puzzle pieces. What we tried to do, again,
was be very respectful, particularly of Mr. Liu's lot, and
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we pulled this development 37' away, which left us some
challenges with these other layout questions.
CHAIR BURCH: Do we have any other questions? I
do. I'm going to ask a very obvious question that I think
has been tossed around. I appreciate that you did the solar
study. To me that answered a lot of questions, but we're
still rather locked in by the obvious issue of the privacy
and the issues we have with the neighbors behind you. I do
not disagree that by stepping them back and everything
you've helped with the problem, but we're still faced with
this problem.
So I think to me there's a very obvious question
in looking at this if we're trying to find a compromise
between you and the neighbors. Can we look at, I'm going to
say, the three units that are most impacting, of making
those single -story? I think in looking at those, tagging
onto what Commissioner Hanssen just said, there is a need
for housing for our seniors. There is a market for a
single -story, bedroom on the first floor, maybe a small
study. You're not looking at a property that won't sell.
I understand what you're saying. Yes, you've been
doing this for two -and -a -half years. We understand there
are a lot of people in your condition right now, and I
think that for us, what we're tasked with is trying to find
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the compromise in there, and to me this feels like an
obvious one. No, it's not going to financially be the same
for you, but unfortunately we are not tasked with reviewing
finances; I've been reminded of that. I'm very simply
looking at how can we give you a project that is going to
work, but will also work with the neighbors, and I want to
know very straightforward, yes or no, is that a compromise
that you guys would consider?
CHRIS KUMMERER: I may not be able to answer that
directly without speaking with my client, but let me just
throw one thing out there. If we said hey lets take that, a
couple of those back units, push them as far back to the
fence as we can, like the neighbors have their houses,
we'll just smash them down and push them back, because
we've got a lot of square footage back there, that may be
viable, because we left 17' on the table.
SHAWN WANG: We have a total of like 37' away
from the fence. If we are allowed to go back to 20' away
from the fence, the back three units single -story, if we
allow to go back to 20', which the code allows, we're okay.
And keep eight units, the back three units single -story,
but we push back, so basically we took back the 17' we put
on the table.
CHAIR BURCH: Okay. I appreciate that.
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CHRIS KUMMERER: We haven't had a chance to talk.
Particularly Mr. Liu's lot, we've always been talking about
those two in the middle are the ones that have the greatest
impact, so I would also consider the two in the middle, if
those were single -story, that would help him quite a bit.
CHAIR BURCH: And I'm only speaking for myself.
The other Commissioners may have very different opinions;
we all look at things from different standpoints. From what
I was looking at and from the neighbors that I was seeing
the largest impact, I was seeing Units 6, 7 and 8 appeared
to be very high impact lots. It appears that the neighbors
behind you have homes that are built closer to the back
fence line. There appeared to be much more of a visual
barrier with those. Again, my other Commissioners may not
agree with me. I'm just trying to find a compromise here so
we can move you forward.
As far as moving it back to the 20', I want to be
specific on my thought on that. Obviously you can do that
by code. I would very much ask if that were something you
were going to do, before you brought it back to Staff that
you brought that and looked at it with the three neighbors
behind you to make sure that the height was right. I guess
what I'm saying is we have standard roof heights, we know
that you can raise those and have an elevated room with a
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tall roof. Obviously we would be looking for you to be
sensitive to that, and you're the architect and I know you
can do that.
I'm going to look to my other Commissioners
though for some comments with this. Commissioner O'Donnell.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I just have a question.
CHAIR BURCH: It's questions still. I still want
people to ask questions.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I want to make sure I
understand what the Chair is exploring. I'm looking at
Commissioner Talesfore's map actually. We're talking about
there are four units in the back of the property.
Specifically what are you suggesting?
CHAIR BURCH: Now again, I'm not speaking for all
of you. That was just my look at the overview.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: No, I understand. I'm
just trying to understand your proposal.
CHAIR BURCH: It's not a proposal. What I'm
trying to ferret out here is, to move the conversation
forward, what compromises that we could ask for that may
appease...
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: That's fine, and I'm not
putting words in your mouth; I'm just trying to understand
it. But if you move Units 6, 7 and 8 to single -story, then
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you have to consider whether you would therefore give up
the 37' in favor of the 20'. You still have Unit 5; it
stays stationary and it's two stories, right?
CHAIR BURCH: (Inaudible).
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: So you've got one is 37'
back, and you've got three that are somewhere perhaps more
than 20', or 20-37'; we haven't gotten there yet. But
that's what the conversation was.
CHAIR BURCH: That's the conversation, yes.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: Okay, thank you.
CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Kane.
COMMISSIONER KANE: If you reduced Units 6, 7 and
8 to one-story, why in fact would you move it back to 20',
in order to increase the ground floor area?
CHRIS KUMMERER: Correct, in order to get a
garage, which takes up a lot of space. A living space and a
couple of bedrooms; we're going to need some footprint, so
that's where we could find it.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Okay, thank you.
CHAIR BURCH: Any other questions? Commissioner
Talesfore.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Just to understand that,
are you thinking you would keep the same square footage?
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CHRIS KUMMERER: I don't know. I guess we'd have
to discuss it...
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Okay, that's fine. Thank
you.
CHRIS KUMMERER: ...and just use that space.
CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Erekson.
CHARLES EREKSON: I'm trying to understand what
they're proposing. If I understand the current proposal,
what happens on the back lots, because you've used a
roughly 37' setback, the back units have significantly
larger yards than the front units. So if I take the same
amount of square footage, I mean roughly, squash it down,
push it out, then I will likely —I'm not going to hold you
to this, because you'd have to do it —reduce the yards to
smaller sizes like the front units, and I potentially will
lose some common area space. I'm trying to understand the
full implications.
CHRIS KUMMERER: Right, and it's fair to say, and
the units will not have probably as great a connection to
the yard, because there are going to be so many spaces that
are going to be looking for windows.
CHARLES EREKSON: Right.
CHRIS KUMMERER: But yeah, I think it can work,
yes.
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CHARLES EREKSON: Right.
CHAIR BURCH: Do we have any other questions?
Commissioner Kane.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Did you just say, "I think it
can work"? Did you say that?
CHRIS KUMMERER: It's easy for me to say. Yes, I
think it can work. I would like to look at the design, but
certainly for those two units, these two here, there is a
lot of room behind them.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Which two, Units 7 and 8?
CHRIS KUMMERER: Units 6 and 7, the ones in the
middle.
COMMISSIONER KANE: The ones in the middle.
CHRIS KUMMERER: Yeah. Oh, my finger is in front
of it. Yeah, and because Mr. Liu's house is taking the
brunt of it, those make the most sense.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Thank you.
CHAIR BURCH: Any other questions? Commissioner
Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Can I just confirm what I
asked earlier, that it would be feasible to look at Units
2, 3 and 4 to have a downstairs bedroom?
CHRIS KUMMERER: You know, this is going to be
hard for me to do off the cuff, because I just don't know.
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We're getting pressure from the consulting architect to
make the porches bigger, that pushes everything back, so it
would take some study. I feel like at some point it's going
to break.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Right, but let me just
clarify though that the BMP unit is Unit 2, right? And that
currently does not have a downstairs bedroom?
CHRIS KUMMERER: That is correct, yes.
CHAIR BURCH: Do we have any other questions? No?
Thank you. All right, we are now going to close the public
portion of the public hearing and ask if any of the
Commissioners have any questions of Staff, want to comment
on the application, or would like to introduce a motion for
consideration? Commissioner Talesfore.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: (Inaudible) I don't
think I've seen it at that width in all the time I've
served, so how would the Fire Department think... Give me
their thinking on that. When I consider the cars are at
least 7' from mirror to mirror, trucks, service trucks,
that driveway is coming off of a busy road, there's going
to be street parking.
JOEL PAULSON: Well, I can't speak for the Fire
Department, but what I can say is the Fire Department has
reviewed this and said that it's an acceptable
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configuration. I believe the Applicant expressed that if
you felt more comfortable with 18' he can make that work,
reduce the landscaping on the sides by a foot on each side
and make that 18'. We're talking about ingress and egress
for four homes.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: That's eight cars, plus
visitors.
JOEL PAULSON: Fortunately, everyone doesn't
generally come in and out at the same time, so there's
ability there, but again, the Applicant offered that 18',
he can make it work; he just reduces the landscaping in the
front if that's something that the Commission feels is
important.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Thanks.
CHAIR BURCH: Any other questions, comments?
Commissioner O'Donnell.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: This is a comment. It's
difficult for me to know exactly what I think of this, so
it's impossible to know what you think of this, but I'm
just going to throw this out for some discussion.
I really kind of think we're at a point where it
would be nice to have a decision and perhaps move this
along. On the other hand, we have some real sensitivities
here. Now, the Chair threw something out to consider, not a
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proposal, but to consider, and I think, after pondering
that myself and listening to the back and forth, it might
help to satisfy conflicting interests if we were to reduce
to single -story the three units we've talked about. That
should solve the shadow problem for the homes behind those
three units. The Applicant, and I am very respectful of the
fact it's very difficult to sit there and handle the things
we were throwing at him, they normally have to think about
things, so I appreciate their attitude. But if I understand
correctly, that is something they could do.
Now, we don't know exactly what it all means
until it's done, so we're sitting here, and if the
Applicant, a professional architect, is trying to handle
this as well as he can, I would probably have considerably
more difficulty, so I don't exactly want to be surprised.
On the other hand, if we could satisfy the
neighbors and allow the Applicant to go forward, that might
be a good result, so I'm throwing out for further
consideration and comment from my fellow commissioners the
concept of the three units being single -story and going
back to the original 20'. Now, there's nothing sacred about
the 20'. It's at 37' now; I can see why they're saying 20'.
But just in general, if anybody at all is interested in
pursuing that, I would like to hear from people. Or if they
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think no, they have more fundamental issues, that would be
nice to know too.
CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Hanssen.
COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I had gone back and looked
at the entire Town Council public hearing prior to coming
to this meeting, because I hadn't viewed it before, and one
thing that struck me as I was looking at that is there were
some nice diagrams, one of which we saw tonight, that
showed what the building heights would look like from the
properties behind on the courts that we've talked about.
It dawned on me that the issue wasn't just the
solar shading at all, it was I bought my house, I've lived
here, I'm looking at nothing right now, there hasn't been
anything there since O'Shea's and maybe they weren't even
there when O'Shea's was. That's as much of the issue as far
as I can tell as anything, and so it seemed to me that if
you could reduce those back units to single -story units,
that might be a compromise that could work for everyone.
Now, I admit I can't speak on behalf of the residents
there, but that was really clear and I kind of looked at
that myself and I said what if I lived there? And I had
that same reaction. I'd be like I don't know if I'd feel
good about looking at houses creeping up over the fence.
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CHAIR BURCH: Thank you. Anyone else?
Commissioner Kane.
COMMISSIONER KANE: Just to express...
(Audio goes silent from 01:49:34 to 01:50:41.)
VICE CHAIR BADAME: That's my input at this
point. Again, I've got some issues with the circulation and
the traffic safety, so that's where I'm sitting right now.
CHAIR BURCH: Well, to continue that dialogue we
would be happy to hear your suggestions, so if your thought
is reduced or something, let's put them out there so we can
make a decision.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: My thought process was had
this come before us as a general amendment to begin with to
zone it to residential, I don't think we would have five
hearings up to this point, and we're almost going to have
to continue this again to see what they might come back
with. So that's my concern. I'd like to see it as a General
Plan amendment, do it right. We don't have anything like
this in town. There is not one example that's been provided
to me where we have allowed a commercial property to have
100% detached condos that look like single-family homes.
CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Erekson.
CHARLES EREKSON: I have a question likely for
the Town Attorney. Resolution 2014-013 is the resolution
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that remanded this issue back to the Planning Commission,
so the whereas clauses are just the whereas clauses, and I
don't read anything in the direction provided to this
Planning Commission, so I want to see if I understand the
direction that the Council provided to the Planning
Commission, that they suggested to the Planning Commission
that they wanted us to come back to them with a proposed
amendment to the General Plan to not consider a Conditional
Use Permit. I don't see anything that suggests to me that
they had provided any direction to reduce the number of
units, so I didn't see that kind of specific direction from
the Council. They just told us in general that they
accepted the appeal. If I understand it right, they accept
the appeal that we had erred in the way that we did about
the legality of the kind of condominiums and remanded it
back to us to be sure that whatever decision we made was
consistent with Architecture and Site, General Plan, et
cetera, is that correct?
ROBERT SCHULTZ: There was a lot in one comment
period, and from what I remember, it was just a general
discussion; there wasn't any specific direction, and I
don't recall any discussion on looking at an amendment. But
I believe, as I recall, there certainly was discussion
amongst Council about density, and the privacy issues, and
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the heights and those things for you to look at again, and
that's how I recall it.
CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Talesfore.
COMMISSIONER TALESFORE: Thank you. Let's see,
I'm going to comment about the Council meeting as I
remember it, and I would say that all five Councilpeople
were concerned about the density; all of them. The
resolution, when it came back to us, because I wrote it out
here, said that the Planning Commission, for further
consideration of the proposed project, pursuant to
Architecture and Site, General Plan, Conditional Use Permit
criteria, and in terms of the site layout and number of
units. So I take that to mean that that is something we
need to look at and discuss. Now, whether we go down with
it, I don't know, but that is something that we...
This is where I'm sitting with this is that if
the Applicant wants to come back after they hear all of our
comments, fine, but in general I would say that had this
gone through the process and the mechanism we do have in
place, which is for a General Plan amendment and zoning, we
wouldn't probably be looking at these five hearings, and it
would have been simple.
But with the CUP it's hard to regulate a lot of
things that we would normally have the ability to regulate,
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so that's why we're struggling. Whether we continue with
this or not, anyway, that's all my comment for now. I just
had to say that.
CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Badame actually found
where this was, so I'm going to ask her to please read that
so that as we consider the conversation we do know what
Council had to direct us.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: I'm referring to the Town of
Los Gatos Planning Commission Staff Report dated December
10, 2014, and on page three is says, "On March 17, 2014 the
Town Council considered the appeal of the CUP, Subdivision,
and Architecture and Site applications. Following the
public hearing and Council discussion the Council adopted
Resolution 2014-013, Exhibit 2, granting the appeal and
remanding the applications back to the Planning Commission
for further consideration of the proposed project pursuant
to Architecture and Site considerations, General Plan,
Conditional Use Permit criteria, and Subdivision Map Act in
terms of the site layout and number of units."
CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner O'Donnell.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: To the extent that
anybody thinks that the fact that it's a condominium versus
a non -condominium is an issue, I guess I'll direct this to
the Town Attorney, but my understanding is it really
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doesn't make any difference whether these were single-
family homes with their own lots or whether they're
condominiums. And they're not air space condominiums,
they're not like we're used to air space condominiums, this
is not an air space condominium. This means that although
the land may be held, I'm assuming, in a broader ownership,
the people who reside in those units own the units, I
believe. But whether that's correct or not correct, I don't
think there's a bit of difference whether this is a
condominium proposal or whether it's a fee simple proposal.
Okay, my question to the Town Attorney: Is that correct?
ROBERT SCHULTZ: That's correct, and we
specifically don't regulate the difference between a
detached or attached condominium.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: A second issue then on
that. The other thing we keep talking about, well gee whiz,
if we had revised the General Plan we wouldn't be having
these problems, which leaves me totally mystified. The
problem we have is solely related to the units. It isn't
related to the General Plan versus a CUP. If they came back
with General Plan Amendment 5-12 and they came back with
eight units, guess what? It would be the same plan we have
before us. In fact, we were told it was designed for that.
So it doesn't wave a magic wand to say well now we're going
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to expend an extra step, which is to amend the General
Plan. Once we amend it, we're going to come back and be
exactly where we are today. Now, if anybody thinks that's
not government at its worst, I'm not one of them.
CHAIR BURCH: Commissioner Badame.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Can you confirm that if we
did do a General Plan amendment and zoned it Residential
that we would have floor area square footage requirements?
We don't have an FAR for a commercial zone. Is that correct
that we would have an FAR requirement if it were zoned for
residential? And also, wouldn't we have setback
requirements? Right now we've got a zero lot line on the
south side.
JOEL PAULSON: I can pull up the exact language.
Staff would not support a General Plan or zone change to
RM-5:12, because there is no RM-5:12 adjacent to this site.
We would recommend an R-1:8, so that would be the single-
family, which is similar to the properties to the east of
the neighbors who have come out here today, and so we would
be in that position. I'll look at the code and see what the
setbacks are for the RM-5:12; I don't have those off the
top of my head.
VICE CHAIR BADAME: Thank you.
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CHAIR BURCH: Any other discussion? Anyone want
to venture a motion? Commissioner O'Donnell.
COMMISSIONER O'DONNELL: I'm going to make a
motion just to see what we're going to do.
I would move that with the amendments or changes
that I will suggest shortly we would make the required
findings for the granting of a Conditional Use Permit,
which are set forth in Exhibit 3; we would make the
required findings for a residential project with three or
more units, which is set forth also in Exhibit 3; find that
the project is consistent with Residential Guidelines, also
spelled out in Exhibit 3; find that the project is
consistent with the considerations for the approval of
Architecture and Site applications; approve the Conditional
Use Permit, which is identified, U-13-012; and Subdivision
Application M-13-004; Architecture and Site Applications S-
13-020 thru S-13-027 subject to the conditions in Exhibit 4
and the development plans; however, that the project would
be for the three units we've identified, I think it is
Units 6, 7 and 8, would be single -story, not double -story,
they would be able to go back to the normal setback for a
single -story, which I understand is 20', and I think that's
it. So that's the motion.
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CHAIR BURCH: Do we have a second? Commissioner
Erekson. All in favor? Opposed? All right, so we have four,
Mr. Kane, Mr. Erekson, Mr. O'Donnell and myself voting yay,
and we have Commissioner Hanssen, Commissioner Talesfore
and Commissioner Badame voting no. Are there any appeal
rights, Mr. Paulson?
JOEL PAULSON: There are appeal rights. Anyone
who is not satisfied with the decision of the Planning
Commission can appeal the decision to the Town Council. The
forms are available in the Clerk's Office. There is a fee
for filing the appeal, and the appeal must be filed within
ten days.
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