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Attachment 03 LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A P P E A R A N C E S: Los Gatos Planning Commissioners: Mary Badame, Chair D. Michael Kane, Vice Chair Charles Erekson Melanie Hanssen Matthew Hudes Town Manager: Laurel Prevetti Community Development Director: Joel Paulson Town Attorney: Robert Schultz Transcribed by: Vicki L. Blandin (510) 337-1558 LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 P R O C E E D I N G S: CHAIR BADAME: Moving to public hearing Item 3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue, Conditional Use Permit Application U-16-003, requesting approval for a Conditional Use Permit to operate group cooking classes, Cucina Bambini, with beer and wine service and alternative use of parking on property zoned C-2. APN 510-45-014. May I have a show of hands from Commissioners who have visited the site? Are there any disclosures from Commissioners? Seeing none, Ms. Puga, I understand you’re providing the Staff Report this evening? JOCELYN PUGA: That’s correct. Good evening, Commissioners. The Applicant, Cucina Bambini, is requesting to operate group-cooking classes with beer and wine service and alternating use of parking on property zoned C-2. The Applicant is proposing to merge two vacant ground floor spaces into one 1,475 square foot space. The Applicant is requesting to operate from 10:00am until 9:00pm seven days a week. The proposed floor plan includes a full kitchen with modular worktables and a flexible space separate from the kitchen area for customers to partake in what are known as “drop-in activities.” LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 The Applicant is requesting a flexible class size that does not propose a maximum cap on the number of students and instructors. This is due to the fact that not all scheduled cooking classes may be at capacity, and which drop-in space would be available. The existing commercial building provides four parking spaces onsite and has credit for 16 parking spaces in the Parking Assessment District. The Applicant has entered into a parking agreement with the landlord for six additional parking space credits Monday through Friday after 5:30pm and all day Saturday and Sunday. Given the proposed parking agreement the Applicant is requesting approval to increase the number of students and instructors after 5:30pm Monday through Friday and from 10:00am until 9:00pm Saturday and Sunday. The Applicant is also proposing beer and wine service during cooking classes and private events. The Town of Los Gatos Alcoholic Beverage Policy requires any new service of alcoholic beverages to be reviewed by the Planning Commission with a recommendation to the Town Council. The Applicant is also proposing beer and wine service for the drop-in activities. As described in the project designation included as Exhibit 4, activities would include cupcake making and decorating. As defined by LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 General Policy 7 of the Alcoholic Beverage Policy, these activities would not be considered a meal. Staff has recommend Conditions of Approval regarding the shared parking agreement, operating hours and alcohol service. The proposed use is in conformance with the Town Code and consistent with the General Plan. Staff recommends that the Planning Commission condition the maximum number of students and instructors allowed at one time, as well as condition that no alcohol service shall be permitted in the drop-in space, and forward a recommendation of approval to the Town Council for the proposed project. There is also a Desk Item before you this evening that contains two public comments that were received after the distribution of the Staff Report. This completes Staff’s presentation and we are available for any questions. CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Ms. Puga. Do we have questions of Ms. Puga? Commissioner Hudes. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you. You say that Staff is recommending setting a maximum number of students. What is that number? JOCELYN PUGA: Working with the Applicants, originally Staff came up with a maximum of 16 students and LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 two instructors Monday through Friday from 10:00am until 5:30pm, and with the additional parking based on the shared parking agreement, that would increase to 31 students and three instructors. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Follow up to that. Are there any other businesses that have a complex parking arrangement by time such as this one? JOCELYN PUGA: There are some group uses in the downtown. One in particular does use this alternate parking, and they also do have a shared parking agreement with the office use in the same building, so it’s a similar scenario. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Do they have different maximums at different hours? JOCELYN PUGA: That’s correct. It’s after the office use, so it’s 5:30pm. COMMISSIONER HUDES: I had some other questions, but they’re on different aspects. CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Hanssen, you had your hand up. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I had a couple questions. One was I know that the CUP goes with the site, so supposing that the proposed use, a cooking class with beer and wine service, didn’t succeed, the only permitted use LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 allowed subsequent to that without a new CUP would be a company that offers cooking classes, not any other kind of class? JOCELYN PUGA: If the use were to leave the space, the CUP does run with the land. If another cooking space wanted to come in, they would have to operate under the same Conditions of Approval in order to use that space. Otherwise, they would need to come back to the Planning Commission to modify the Conditional Use Permit. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: And it would have a cooking class, not some other kind of class? JOCELYN PUGA: Yes, the same use. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Then kind of a follow-on to that. There’s a mention of four parking spaces onsite. Are those the ones that are directly behind the building? JOCELYN PUGA: That’s correct. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: And one of those I’ve noted was a handicap space. Then, I know Sur La Table also offers cooking classes. I just wanted to confirm they do not to my knowledge offer alcohol, but that’s not a primary part of their business to do the classes. Do we have any experience with that in terms of how it’s affected parking? Because a regular retail establishment would fall under a certain LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ratio of parking to people that might be in the store; whereas we’ve been learning with some of these classes that they tend to have higher needs for parking, because of the need for all the people to be there at one time, so I didn’t know if we had any knowledge of how it has worked out with others that have offered cooking classes, and Sur La Table is just a couple blocks way, so I wondered about them. JOCELYN PUGA: Sur La Table does have a Conditional Use Permit for their cooking classes, and you’re correct, it does not include beer or wine. As of date we have no violations with regard to complaints of parking for the use, so I don’t have any background knowledge with regard to that question. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: But we haven’t heard any vocal complaints about it? JOCELYN PUGA: There have been none that have been filed with the code compliance officer. CHAIR BADAME: Thank you. Any further questions? Vice Chair Kane. VICE CHAIR KANE: Thank you for your report. I’m looking at the Town’s Alcohol Policy and a number of questions come up. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I’m wondering, we strongly discourage—a nice way of putting it—new applications for standalone bars or restaurants with separate bars. Where do we have alcohol where it is not a restaurant? Or put another way, are we considering this establishment a restaurant? JOCELYN PUGA: We are not considering this establishment a restaurant, no. CHAIR BADAME: Along with that, a wine bar is not considered a restaurant. JOCELYN PUGA: That’s correct, it’s not. VICE CHAIR KANE: Does our Alcohol Policy provide for establishments that are not restaurants serving beer and wine? JOCELYN PUGA: It does not, so it does not speak to this particular use, which is somewhat of a hybrid use, but I does speak to serving meals with alcohol, and that’s where Staff has pulled that interpretation from. VICE CHAIR KANE: So we’d be arbitrarily opening up the Alcohol Policy to another corridor of use, since we currently don’t have one of that nature, is that correct? JOEL PAULSON: That is correct. I’ll speak to that. Obviously, as was mentioned before, many wine bars have been approved that don’t fit into this policy, LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 but this is the closest policy to address alcohol service, and so that’s why Staff has chosen to use that. If you have concerns, then you can make that part of your recommendation as we move forward. VICE CHAIR KANE: As I read the resolution, yes, I do, because alcohol beverages are not regulated, we want to balance the regulation, and we’re opening a corridor for a non-restaurant to be serving beer and wine, so I’ll bring that up later. I have another question, if I may? CHAIR BADAME: Of course, Vice Chair Kane. VICE CHAIR KANE: The parking, there are only four spots there, right? JOCELYN PUGA: There are four parking spaces that are onsite, but they have 16 parking spaces in the Parking Assessment District. VICE CHAIR KANE: I know, I was there today. Where are the other 16 spots? JOCELYN PUGA: They’re in the Parking Assessment District. VICE CHAIR KANE: That’s the old policy of they’re out there somewhere, and we could have up to 31 students and three instructors? LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 JOCELYN PUGA: That’s correct. Many of these downtown uses provide onsite parking, and so they bought into the Parking Assessment District to do so. VICE CHAIR KANE: I appreciate the Parking Assessment District, but I’m very concrete, and I see 31 people inside the store leaving, I see 31 people outside the store waiting for a parking spot, and I see three parking spots available, which may have been taken by the instructors, because they’re dutiful and arrive early. You see what I’m seeing? I’m seeing what a lot of people are objecting to, which is intensity and more traffic and no place to park. I have a question on the 5:30 provision to open up more parking. The people who made that agreement, does this mean that they have to leave, the staff; the whole function of that building has to leave the building at 5:30? JOCELYN PUGA: That’s correct. The Applicant can speak more to that, as they worked with the landlord to make this determination, but it was that, yes, the office use that is on the second floor would vacate the space by 5:30pm. VICE CHAIR KANE: I don't know any better so I’m asking you, is that a practical promise? A business has to LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 shut down at 5:30 to give up the parking spaces that aren’t there. Does that work? JOCELYN PUGA: It can work, and it’s what the landlord, who occupies that second floor, has agreed to. VICE CHAIR KANE: All right, thank you. CHAIR BADAME: I believe we’ll be hearing from the landlord tonight, too, if I can interpret these speaker cards correctly. Commissioner Hudes. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Two things. One, I assume that the existing businesses, when they were operating well, consumed some parking as well. Is it your belief that this new use incurs more parking? JOCELYN PUGA: The previous spaces were both retail. They were a laundry mat and a flower shop, so they do have a different parking calculation for the downtown. Based on that it’s one per 300 square feet. Without doing the math, I can’t tell you exactly what the difference would be, but they would more than likely be similar in use. JOEL PAULSON: I’ll just jump in as well. That’s where we start to determine how many parking spaces they have, which is 7.33, and as we regulate group classes of any kind we require one parking space for every instructor LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and one parking space for every three students. So for us, the parking is equal. COMMISSIONER HUDES: I had another question. CHAIR BADAME: Okay, go ahead, and then I’ll get to Commissioner Hanssen next. COMMISSIONER HUDES: In the Applicant’s statement they asserted that there have been no problems with the alcohol or any other issue in Willow Glen. Did Staff independently verify that with the City of San Jose? JOCELYN PUGA: No, they did not. CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Hanssen. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Actually my question was exactly the same as Commissioner Hudes’. I think that’s an important thing, and we’ll want to hear more from the Applicant that there is already an existing location in Willow Glen and there is experience with that, and maybe we don’t have all the data from that, but I think that will be helpful in this. CHAIR BADAME: All right, one more question from Vice Chair Kane, and then I’m going to suggest that we move on to hear from the Applicant. VICE CHAIR KANE: In Staff’s report of the Applicant’s request, the Applicant requested that there be no cap on the attendance, which seems a little difficult to LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 grant, no cap on attendance, when we’re going to discuss very tight parking. But it seems to me that there’s an internal cap, and that’s limited by the parking, is that correct? JOEL PAULSON: That’s correct. I’ll try to clarify, and Ms. Puga can correct me, or the Applicants can correct me when they come up. What the Applicant is requesting is that they be permitted to have any combination of number of students and/or instructors that is supported by the parking that they will provide, whether that’s Monday through Friday from 10:00 to 5:30 or after 5:30 Monday through Friday and Saturday and Sunday. If you look at Exhibit 5 there is a chart, and just for discussion purposes, the first line, if they only had one instructor the parking would support 19 students. If they had five instructors, the parking would only allow seven students, and then everywhere in between, and likewise down below. So they’re asking for that flexibility. VICE CHAIR KANE: Thank you. One more? CHAIR BADAME: One more question. VICE CHAIR KANE: That Applicant has offered, and it seems a very good idea, that there be cooking classes for children. Now the Applicant has also stated there would LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 14 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 be a mom and dad night out, date night, where their children could be left and mom and dad could have an evening on the town. That’s an evening timeframe for children to be in this location, and I didn’t see anything in the Staff Report about certification of personnel taking care of 10-15 children in an evening setting when mom and dad are not around. Do we require that? JOCELYN PUGA: We don’t require that and we don’t have any specifications for that, but the Applicant can speak further to that question. I know that they do similar scenarios in their Willow Glen location and they can speak to that. VICE CHAIR KANE: Thank you. CHAIR BADAME: Thank you. I’m going to recommend that we hear from the Applicant; they’ve been waiting patiently. Thank you Ms. Puga. We will now open the public testimony portion of the public hearing and allow the Applicant and their team ten minutes to address the Commission. If you could please state your name when you reach the microphone, so I know which speaker card to attach it to. RICK BALLARD: My name is Rick Ballard. CHAIR BADAME: Thank you. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 15 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RICK BALLARD: Thanks very much for this opportunity, and thank you, Ms. Puga, for the report. As was mentioned, Cucina Bambini opened in 2008, so we’ve been open for eight years, and in all that time, in fact before that time, we’ve been excited about the prospect of opening in Los Gatos; we’re both from the area. When we found our site in Willow Glen we decided to open there, and since then we’ve developed a method. I’ll get into showing the floor plan and how we operate, but I wanted to point out that the business is much more than cooking classes, what we operate. We’ve been compared to Sur La Table because it’s an obvious comparison; they do cooking classes as well. But really, there’s no place else that I know of like us that offers cooking for all ages. It’s basically a fun place to come and cook. We have classes and events from age three all the way through adults, but in fact more than just classes. Over half our business are private parties and events. One of the reasons we have more people coming on the weekends is there are primarily children’s birthdays throughout the day. Our Willow Glen location has two separate kitchens, it’s 2,100 square feet, and so we can have parties in each different kitchen. The parking situation LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there… We can address parking; I know those questions will come up. I’ll just say one of the reasons we’re actually excited about this particular location is because of the parking. We looked in Los Gatos at several locations over the last two years straight. We met with every member of Town Council and discussed everything. We’re extremely familiar with the regulations, which is why we proposed that sort of sliding scale so long as we’re compliant with the regulations, which in all cases we would be, and I can address that. But just to give an idea of the types of parties and events we do. Adult cooking classes, group dinner parties, corporate events, we do lots of family decade birthday parties where families will come cook together. We received our beer and wine class 41 license; I think we’ve had it a little over three years now in our current location. Never a single incident or issue whatsoever. It’s not in any way a bar. Someone doesn’t just come in and order a glass or wine or a bottle of wine. As someone pointed out in those letters, there are plenty of spaces in Los Gatos where someone can go get a drink. It’s not our place. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 17 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 We have found that offering beer and wine service during our adult events allows us to do many more types of events, more culinary experience events; food and wine pairing, for example, or corporate events where people may want to have different sorts of wine. We can work with local wineries like Savannah- Chanelle, which is one of our partners; we serve their wine, we can have events. In Willow Glen we’ve worked with local restaurants where a chef will come and have all of his loyal customers come. He’ll come to our place and he will teach a class at our place, and bring his customers in, and of course they want to have wine with dinner, or they want to learn about pairing food with wine. It’s an intricate part of the business. We have a retail component, but we are not primarily a retail site. For example, again, I heard the comparison to Sur La Table. We’re very different. Sur La Table does not offer beer and wine, but they have a full retail establishment. One thing I will say is beer and wine is essential to our business, so when that question comes up, the answer is yes. The reason is we found when we first got our license, while it only makes up about maybe 2.5% of our LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 total revenue, beer and wine service, the moment we got it we were able to start doing corporate events, adult dinner parties, family gatherings, Kiwanis Club events, all those sorts of things where we wouldn’t have before, because people wouldn’t want to come, if they didn’t have that kind of rich culinary experience; it’s pretty hard to separate the two. Our business increased by at least 30% because we can offer beer and wine, so it’s essential to our business. It might help to give a little bit of an overview of the space, the floor plan. This is the same floor plan that was submitted already to the Commission, and it’s on the wall over there, this is just easier to see. South Santa Cruz Avenue is right here; Broadway Avenue is over on this end down here, and the adjacent business here. This is our main kitchen right here, and it’s outfitted essentially much like a high-end residential kitchen, so unlike some other cooking schools that you’ve been to or may have seen it’s not a real commercial type kitchen. It feels more like a well appointed home kitchen with the Viking ranges and the nice ovens and things like that. These worktables are shown here as an example for classes. These are actually modular worktables, stainless LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 19 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 steel worktables. We can move them anywhere, and the beauty of our space is our ability to do lots of different kinds of events. This is set up for a typical class right here where you can see I think there are 18 seats here. This would be a regular kid’s class or an adult class. Up in front above the screen there’s a monitor where whoever is cooking up front, you can see what they’re doing. This space here, which was described as flex space; sometimes we use it. In our current locations it’s a whole other kitchen, but in this location sometimes we will actually use it to set up tables. Let’s say we do a corporate event or an adult dinner party, you’re making pasta or you’re doing a Thai menu or something in the main kitchen, and then over here we’ll have a dining table all set up, so when you’re finished you can go sit and enjoy the meal, perhaps with wine, with the rest of your party. So to that point—and we can address it later—I wouldn’t call this a drop-in area, and I wouldn’t want to have a limitation that says we can’t have alcohol in this area, because it is part of the overall kitchen. Kids’ activities, whether they’re drop-in activities or a kid’s class, we’ve never once had somebody request beer and wine, and we would never offer it, and we’re fine having a policy LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 20 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 or limitation that there is no alcohol for the kid’s classes. It’s only for people who are participating in the adult classes. There may have been discussion, and I didn’t realize this, in the Staff Report where it said that we’re requesting alcohol service for the drop-in, and I think that came up because sometimes we may have… Most of our events are either private parties or scheduled classes, but sometimes we want to have a drop-in pizza night where families can come in and they can make pizza and cupcakes from scratch. They make the dough, they make the sauce, and they can enjoy them there. That kind of a drop-in event, it seems to me if a family wants to have wine with their dinner, they should be able to. It seems to me they’re eating a full meal, but we’re willing to discuss that, I suppose. I think this gives you a general layout of the facility and the types of things we do. One of the reasons we really like this space, especially this space, is it’s also directly across from the park where there is the farmers market. It’s exciting to us, because we can do the sourcing of local ingredients and have something we’ve done a little bit in Willow Glen— but it’s not quite as convenient because their farmers LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 21 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 market is very far from our place—is we can have farmers market classes where people can come in, we go to the farmers market together, pick out ingredients, then come back and cook. Whether it’s a cooking challenge, one team against the other, a Chopped type of thing, this space makes that available. We’ll talk more about the parking, but I would say we’ve been to this site, my wife and I, a dozen times just recently. I mean I’ve lived here for 40 years, so I know downtown very well, and I know you do too, and I can tell you this area of town is by far the easiest to park anywhere. The dozen times we’ve been to this site over the past six months or so we’ve never once had to look for parking more than about 30 seconds. It’s never been an issue in this part of town, for our car. I would say our use is very different. The kid’s classes, the kids don’t drive; parents drop them off. The parties, people come together. I think the three to one is a very conservative ratio. I realize that for health clubs and nail salons and things like that that people come individually; this is very different. CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Mr. Ballard. Are there questions for Mr. Ballard? Commissioner Erekson. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 22 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 COMMISSIONER EREKSON: Thank you for your presentation. I’ll have some comments about the business, because I’m actually familiar with your operation in San Jose. In the Conditions of Approval—assuming this gets approved at some point—there is language used, “ student and instructors,” when discussing limitations on the use, so in your mind the people who are drop-ins, if you have a drop-in activity, are they students? Assuming they’re not instructors. RICK BALLARD: Yes, they’re students. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: So if you were maxed out by the use conditions with classes that were going on, you wouldn’t be operating, even if that space were sitting vacant? In other words, if you had the maximum number of students that were permitted in the main kitchen, and there wasn’t anything going in in what was shown as flex retail space, you would not have drop-ins going in there? RICK BALLARD: That’s correct. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: Okay. CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Hanssen. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Thank you for your presentation. I went on your website for your Willow Glen location and I was looking at the calendar, so I was hoping LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 maybe you could clarify if I was seeing what I thought I was seeing. It looked to me like—I think you alluded to this— a big part of your business was the kid’s parties, and then another big part was the private events. Then to me it looked like a lesser part of the business was the adult classes that are more private events. Would that be a fair statement? RICK BALLARD: I think that’s a fair statement, because a lot of the adult activities are more the private events as opposed to just the adult classes. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: That’s what I thought. On this parking issue, you said you hadn’t had any trouble finding parking spots. Have you tried to find a parking spot during the farmers market on Sunday morning or any time during the day on Saturday, especially during the summer here in downtown Los Gatos? RICK BALLARD: During the daytime, yes. During the farmers market, no. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: That might be the cause of some concerns that my fellow commissioners have. I did notice on the schedule, just looking at what you had scheduled in your Willow Glen location, it looked like there were back-to-back parties all day long on Saturday. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 24 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 So if a party is from 11:00 to 1:00, and then the next party is from 1:00 to 3:00, and that party is at whatever capacity of, say, 20 or so people, what happens at the transition point? Because people are going to be leaving at 1:00 o’clock, and then they’ll be coming in at 1:00 o’clock, so that actually could be twice as much on a busy day like Saturday. It looked like that’s the day that you had the most events scheduled. RICK BALLARD: I understand the question. Remember that our location in Willow Glen has two kitchens, and so that allows us to actually have more parties. In the kitchen there’s always an hour break between the parties. It’s impossible for us to clean up for one event and have the next event feel like they’re having a fresh party, so there’s always at least an hour break as far as I can tell between every party, so it’s not an issue. People clear out before the next event. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: That would make a big difference in terms of avoiding what I just said, which is the double parking issue with the overlap. Maybe you could say in what ways you think the scheduling might be difficult. I did notice, for example, all summer long it looked like you had kid’s classes, but they were primarily on the weekdays. You mentioned that the LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 parents drop them off, but if there are 20 kids in the class the parents need to come drop them off, and then they need to come back and pick them up, and they’re probably going to, I guess, leave the area until they come back and pick them up for the camp. Is that a fair… RICK BALLARD: I don't know. If dropped my kids off, I’d want to spend the afternoon or a couple of hours in Los Gatos and have lunch or go get coffee. I think that, again, is one of the beauties of this particular location. People can kind of do that in Willow Glen where we are, but they have to walk a little farther; we’re not right in the prime area. Here, why would you want to park twice? COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Right. I did note that if the Willow Glen experience is similar to what it might turn out to be in Los Gatos that the vast majority of all their kid’s classes were at times when it wasn’t a high traffic time for us. It looked like they were primarily in the middle of the day, or in the case of the summer camps, they’re in the mornings and maybe even early afternoon on weekdays, but not going into the weekend unless there are kid’s birthday parties and stuff. RICK BALLARD: That’s right. Usually we have Little Chef classes, the little ones in the morning, those are only an hour long—usually parents stay for those, LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 26 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 because the kids are much smaller—then maybe after school. Well, there are some other kid’s classes that are home schoolers, or older kids, but many of them actually live in this area or in Los Gatos Mountains. That would be during the daytime. Then there are some afterschool classes for kids, but primarily it’s during the daytime, kid’s classes. Then adult, if you’ll notice on the schedule when we have adult events they’re typically from 6:00pm to 8:00pm. We purposely don’t schedule those every night. On nights that we don’t have those, we have those slots available for private dinner parties. If you want to get together with a group of friend and have a dinner party, that’s where you do it. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: So, for example, this weekend I noticed back-to-back parties all day long on Saturday, so are those corporate events, or adult events, or are they kid events? RICK BALLARD: If it’s back-to-back during the weekends, those are typically kid’s birthday parties. Again, it’s one of the reasons we want to open up here, because we’re full, and this is a site that’s very accessible for our staff and close, and we have a clientele that… LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 27 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, sir. I’m going to look to the other Commissioners who were waiting with their questions, and then we can circle back when he comes back for five minutes. So Commissioner Hudes followed by Vice Chair Kane. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you. I had two questions on the business model, and I appreciate, and I want to make sure I understand, the alcohol part of the business model. You said that in Willow Glen alcohol sales contributed about 2.5% to your revenue. RICK BALLARD: That’s right. COMMISSIONER HUDES: And that it generated about a 30% increase in your business due to opening up on adult activities. RICK BALLARD: That’s right. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Do you anticipate that to be the same in Los Gatos? RICK BALLARD: I do anticipate that if we did not have beer and wine that we would not be able to have the adult events, and the business model would not work here. It’s more expensive here as well. COMMISSIONER HUDES: How essential is that adult event to your overall business model? LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 28 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RICK BALLARD: Well over 50% of our revenue, probably 60%-plus of our revenue is adult events. The ones that are dependent on beer and wine, like I said, we had a 30% increase, so it’s significant. Probably a third of our business could be attributed to events where the people may not have otherwise come if we weren’t able to have that as an offering. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Would you say that you are unlikely to be successful if you’re not able to do adult events? RICK BALLARD: We would not proceed if we can’t… Oh, if we do not do adult events? COMMISSIONER HUDES: Correct, because if there were an alcohol restriction, and then therefore you were not doing adult events. RICK BALLARD: We’ve done research on this, and there are a smattering of children’s cooking schools around the country, and in almost every instance eventually they fail, because they don’t have a model like ours. It sounds great to do it, but if you spend that much money on a kitchen and a location, you want to keep it busy. COMMISSIONER HUDES: I had one other business model question and that’s about the local chefs. When LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 29 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you’re doing something with local chefs, who’s running the establishment? RICK BALLARD: We have staff there that knows the facility. It’s just having a guest instructor come in. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Then with regard to monitoring this, do you have a similar sliding scale student/instructor ratio to what you proposed on page 4 of 7 in your other facilities, and if so, who keeps track of that, and who asks employees to leave or kids to leave? RICK BALLARD: We keep track of that. My wife Shelley runs the business, and she has a manager and a couple staff supervisors that if we have too many staff… There’s never an instance where we say there are too many people here, because things are scheduled ahead of time. All of our classes are booked online. If we have an event, people say how many people are coming, so we plan staff accordingly. If people don’t show up, then we may let some staff go home. The whole point of the sliding scale isn’t because we want an open-ended cap. It is more because we want the ability to add more staff, and we want to say the rules allow us, if we have one more staff member, then that just means we can have… I want to be able to have extra staff, knowing that for each additional staff member we LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 30 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 have, we can have three fewer customers. The whole point of that is we may have a time where we want to do training. We might want to have four staff members there because two people are shadowing. If so, then the available number would go down. We can only have ten students, and… Very often we have a small class. We may want to have extra staff there. So that’s why I just don’t want a limit on the number of staff, so long as I recognize that if we have extra staff, then the number of patrons goes down. COMMISSIONER HUDES: And the numbers that are on page 4 of 7 realistic? Would you actually have 19 kids and I think maybe it’s two employees? RICK BALLARD: The 19 and 1 is an infrequent, probably not with kids, but there is an instance, and again, the reason we propose this is because that shows the maximum capacity of the place. Twenty people during the day, 19 and 1, is the maximum number of bodies we could have in there, but that’s an atypical situation. It has happened before. For example, in Willow Glen we had a business association come. They’d come periodically and they’d have a meeting there, maybe do some sort of activity. We only need one staff member for that. COMMISSIONER HUDES: What would be more typical than 19 and 1? LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 31 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RICK BALLARD: During the daytime, 16 and 2, as Ms. Puga mentioned, and on the weekends, 31 and 3, depending on the type of event. If it’s more of an adult event, it’s doable. If there are kids involved or at birthday parties, it’s usually the 28 and 4. COMMISSIONER HUDES: So it’s 16 and 2, 31 and 3, and 28 and 4, is that correct? RICK BALLARD: Those are the most typical. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay, thank you. CHAIR BADAME: I’m going to jump in with a question for you, Mr. Ballard. Beer and wine licenses, they usually lead to full alcohol licenses. My question to you, do you envision down the road having craft cocktail pairings with food? RICK BALLARD: No. CHAIR BADAME: No. RICK BALLARD: I don’t. CHAIR BADAME: Thank you. Vice Chair Kane. VICE CHAIR KANE: I have four questions, if I can get them all in. I’d like to begin with further discussion of the agreement you have with the landlord, and I made the question of Staff that in order for you to get the additional spots they actually have to leave the building LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 32 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 at 5:30 for your parking spots to go up. And I asked Staff is that really practical? I have an office in town; I rarely leave at 5:30. The phone can ring at 5:25. But this says I’ve got to be out at 5:30. I run the business, I own the building, and it says I’ve got to be out at 5:30. I wonder about the practicality of that, but what I also just noticed is this says I can’t work on weekends, nor my staff. Is that practical? RICK BALLARD: Well, we only have three spaces. May I put up the chart, so we all can look at the same parking? VICE CHAIR KANE: That’s the chart I’m working with. They have to be out at 5:30 during the week. RICK BALLARD: The parking agreement gives us six of their nine allocated spaces. You can see here they have nine allocated spaces, right? VICE CHAIR KANE: Right. RICK BALLARD: Six of them on the weekends. The owner will come up, and like you, he owns the building and also that’s his office. They have 9.46 spaces allocated there. They have four employees there, and none of them use the onsite parking. In fact, they have a parking agreement, which they gave me a copy. It has been submitted to the Commission. All of their people are parking in the Toll LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 33 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 House. They have a monthly agreement where everybody parks there, because it’s easier for them. They don’t use a single onsite parking spot; they don’t use a single offsite parking spot. VICE CHAIR KANE: Be that as it may, I’ve asked Staff this question. They have to be out of the building at 5:30, or are you allowing people to take their spots over at the Toll House? RICK BALLARD: I’m sorry. I’ll let the owner speak to this, but they don’t have to all be out by 5:30. We’re only taking six of their 9.46 spots. VICE CHAIR KANE: This may be a tempest in a teapot, but let me seek clarification. When I first discussed the parking situation on the four parking spots, the contract, the Letter of Understanding that they have with the landlord, says they get extra spots at 5:30, and I made the inquiry: Does that mean that the landlord and his or her staff need to leave at 5:30 to create those spots? The answer that I got from Staff was this is correct. Is that correct? JOEL PAULSON: I’ll look to Ms. Puga. JOCELYN PUGA: That was an incorrect statement. If you look at the parking table they still have 3.4 parking spaces left, so there still would be the LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 34 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 availability for them to use the space after 5:30pm and on the weekends. VICE CHAIR KANE: So they don’t have to leave the building? JOCELYN PUGA: That’s correct. VICE CHAIR KANE: But they somehow create additional parking by staying there? JOCELYN PUGA: They still have a remaining balance of parking left. VICE CHAIR KANE: I’ll admit I’m confused. My second question: I asked earlier of Staff, when you have 16-19 children, either at a birthday party or for—I’m not sure what you call it—date night, or Mom and Dad’s night out, when you have 16… You had junior chef classes, what, from three to five, and junior and senior classes from five to eight years old? RICK BALLARD: Oh, yeah. VICE CHAIR KANE: These are young kids? RICK BALLARD: Young kids, yes. VICE CHAIR KANE: And if I had a young child and I wanted a date night or something, I could drop my child off at, I don't know, 6:00 or 7:00 o’clock, have a two-hour dinner. The people taking care of the children, whether it’s daytime or nighttime, are they certified? LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 35 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RICK BALLARD: Are they… VICE CHAIR KANE: Certified for small childcare, supervision? RICK BALLARD: Our manager and my wife are both early childhood development certified. We owned a pre- school for almost ten years ourselves, and some of our same staff is there. Not all of the staff is certified. We’re not required by the State of California to have childcare certification. There are some drop-in kidcare places, if you look at them. As long as they’re there during a certain number of hours, under a certain number of hours, or a certain number of hours cumulative throughout the week or something like that, throughout a month, then it’s not considered a childcare facility. VICE CHAIR KANE: I’m just being a dad. RICK BALLARD: Oh, yeah. VICE CHAIR KANE: And I don’t understand the law, but if I drop all at 7:00 o’clock at night with 15 other three year olds, five year olds, eight year olds, those people don’t have to be certified? RICK BALLARD: No. I mean we have staff policies, and we have, but certified by the State of California or anybody else, I’m not sure what you mean by certified, but it’s not a childcare center. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 36 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 VICE CHAIR KANE: Certified, vetted, background. RICK BALLARD: It’s not a childcare center. VICE CHAIR KANE: All right. I want to get a vision of how this works. So we have Uncle Harry’s birthday and 30 of us are coming, or 20. But it’s a class; it’s not a party. We’re going to learn how to cook something. So there are going to be one or two people there teaching us—I love your layout, by the way, very nice—one or two people, maybe three. Maybe you’ll assign an instructor to each one of those tables; I don't know how it works. But how does the beer and wine work? Is it self-serve, or do you have a waiter? RICK BALLARD: You would order it from one of our staff members. VICE CHAIR KANE: So the person teaching? RICK BALLARD: Well, no, we always have a lead instructor, and in a scenario like you said, probably two helpers. VICE CHAIR KANE: The helpers would go and get the beer and wine? RICK BALLARD: Yeah, one of the staff members is in charge of going around, just like a waiter in a way, but they’re seeing how are you guys doing with your cooking? Can I get you anything, any utensils? There’s always a head LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 37 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 instructor, and then there are other staff members who are there to help take care of the customers and make sure everything is going smoothly. VICE CHAIR KANE: I’m guessing it works in Willow Glen, but we may have different requirements than San Jose, and I’m trying to see four people teaching cooking and also serving beer and wine, which limits my birthday party to 28 people. That’s how it would work? RICK BALLARD: Yes, it would limit the number. I have to look at the table. Yes. VICE CHAIR KANE: All right. My final question is very important. You understand that during the summer you won’t be able to work on Wednesday night? Jazz on the Plazz. We can’t have any competition. It’s only ten weeks. RICK BALLARD: We’ll come up with a… VICE CHAIR KANE: That’s a hell of an event. I mean we pack a whole bunch of people in there, and if they want to learn how to cook a pie, they could come on over. RICK BALLARD: Occasionally Willow Glen, not quite as extravagant, but they have Dancing on the Avenue and events like that, and we’re mindful to not schedule events that are going to be a headache for everybody at those times. But it does give us an opportunity to open our LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 38 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 doors and let people come in and see and hand out information, so it’s almost as valuable. VICE CHAIR KANE: You said you’ve been in town a long time, so you know how magic it can get on those summer Wednesday nights, that’s all. CHAIR BADAME: Was that a question or a statement? VICE CHAIR KANE: Did you know? Thank you. CHAIR BADAME: We are going to move on, but thank you, Mr. Ballard. You’ll have an opportunity to come back up and we’ll ask you more questions, I’m sure, but we’re waiting to hear from members of the public. I have two speaker cards here. John Machado. JOHN MACHADO: Good evening, I’m John Machado; I reside at 16411 Matilija Drive in Los Gatos, California. Mr. Tate, the property owner who will be speaking, has hired me to lease this property. We were very specific in the type of tenants we were looking for. We are very happy with Cucina Bambini, because in my experience in working in the Town here for over 30 years, the foot traffic for traditional retail seems to die right at Main Street and we don’t get a lot of foot traffic as far as retailers. People may walk to Willow Street Pizza and have pizza and beer, or they may get an ice cream or a LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 39 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 burger, but as far as retail shoppers, we’ve been not successful in getting them to go that far south or west in town. So we were seeking destination retailers that had experience in operation. I did visit the store in Willow Glen, and there are other retailers in that area and everything was very positive feedback. We also like the idea that it caters to the children and it’s an educational class in addition to what Sur La Table and Williams-Sonoma does, which are big chains. We know in Los Gatos we’d like to help the individual and we’re not as formula store oriented, so we feel this is a proper fit. We don’t want to have continual revolving doors in this location, and we feel this particular use will be here long-term and serve the community. Thank you. CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Mr. Machado. Any questions from Commissioners? Seeing none, thank you. Our next speaker is Ron Tate. RON TATE: Good evening, Commissioners, my name is Ron Tate. I’ve owned the property for 18 years. I’ve resided in the property for 18 years. I have my real estate development company upstairs. I’ve been doing real estate development for 57 years and owned a lot of commercial real estate over the years. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 40 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 My location, I struggled with it from the beginning of time. My average tenant has stayed two years, because having to have retail where there’s no foot traffic just doesn’t work, and there never will be any, because I have the park, I have the post office, and the only retailer now left coming south on North Santa Cruz Avenue is the hardware store. I know you don’t care about my success, but my success can only be successful if I have somebody that’s destination. The beauty shop I have is destination, and the rest of the retail has just been a total failure. I’ve had to evict three tenants, and in 18 years I’ve had eight different retail tenants. Let me clear up one other thing. No, I don’t leave my office at 4:00 or 5:00 o’clock some days, but I park, and all my employees park, in the Toll House parking lot. We do not park onsite. I have a contract with them. You should have a letter in your file I got from the Toll House. I’ve been paying them to park there in their parking lot for 15 years, so that being said, I don’t impact the parking at all. The other issue that I think is really important is I think this is kind of a use that’s different. It’s been successful in our area. And this is not a drinking establishment; this is not a cocktail lounge. People don’t LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 41 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 come in to have a cocktail. I don’t drink at all, I never have drank, but I go to meet people sometimes at the wine bars, and 90% of those people are legally drunk, because they sit there and they drink. This is not how this works. People come in and they have a beer or a glass of wine, or they pair the wines with the food, and that is a wholly different kind of establishment. With that being said, my wife and I decided actually if in fact we don’t get this use, we’re probably just going to put dead storage downstairs, because every time I have a tenant turnover, it’s about $25,000 to $30,000 between paying the broker, paying leasing commissions and everything else; it just doesn’t work out for us. We’re just not going to try it anymore. We’re not a retail location. Just one quick thing. There are 51 retailers from Main Street going down Highway 9. I have one, the hardware store, so I really wish that you would approve this use. I think it would be good for the Town and a service that’s not offered here. Thank you. CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Mr. Tate. We have a question for you from Commissioner Hudes. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you. I appreciate looking for a creative use of the space to enhance the LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 42 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 vitality of our downtown, and I understand that retail may be a challenge in that space, and so thinking about this, it’s coming down to a question really about the parking. There were some statements that were made about the parking not being used by the existing tenants, that they were parking offsite. Is that correct, and could you describe the parking situation behind the building? RON TATE: The parking behind the building is strictly for the tenants, or the shoppers, the people that come and go. None of our employees are allowed. Our employees cannot even pull in the parking lot; that’s the rule. They have to park at the Toll House and walk back and forth. The parking is used by the tenants, and a lot of times it’s used by people who don’t belong in the parking lot but they’re there, and so we have other high intensity long-term uses such as the spa, and ladies come and have their hair done; they’re four or five hours. But we police my parking. Four of us—I actually have five people now, but we all have parking passes—do not park in the parking lot; it’s not allowed. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Follow up. Do you believe that there will be parking for 7+5 customers plus instructors, up to 18, 16+2, during the day, and also 22+6 in the evening, and 34+2 in the evening? LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 43 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RON TATE: Yes. There’s a map that shows where all the parking is. This is not a big deal. They’ll give it to their students. We’ve talked about this. There’s a map that shows where all of the all-day parking is, where the short-term parking is. It’s a challenge. This is why Los Gatos is so vibrant, because there isn’t enough parking, and I don’t think there ever will be enough parking per se, as parking goes. So yes, I do believe if people look for parking the way I… I tell people when people come to see me, I say, “Look, if there’s no in my parking lot,”—and I have very few people come to see me, I have ten visitors a month on the outside—but if people park… Everybody seems to find a parking space. It’s a little bit of a challenge, but it is a challenge. Every business has that challenge. I don't know of anybody that has enough parking. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you. CHAIR BADAME: Vice Chair Kane has a question, and not a statement, for you. VICE CHAIR KANE: Number one, Mr. Tate, I know your contribution to the Town and your many, many years of living here and contributing, et cetera. I wish you success on the project, and I’m trying to get my hands around the LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 44 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 parking, and I’m trying to get my hands around the alcohol and the children. You have a Letter of Understanding signed by Mr. and Mrs. Ballard and yourself. It says, “In accordance with our lease, each Monday to Friday after 5:00pm and all day on Saturday and Sunday during the term of the lease, landlord assigns six additional parking spaces from the total number of parking spaces allocated to landlord in connection with its business operations on the second floor,” and you mentioned that you are a commercial realtor with a full staff, et cetera. So that’s where I got the impression… RON TATE: No, I’m a commercial real estate developer. I don’t have real estate sales people or anything. VICE CHAIR KANE: Commercial real estate developer; I’m sorry. Because you have time specific is why I thought staff would have to leave to vacate those spots, otherwise, why be specific about the time at all? Simply allocate the spots to them? RON TATE: Sure, perfect. VICE CHAIR KANE: You can do that? RON TATE: Absolutely, not a problem. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 45 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 VICE CHAIR KANE: See where it gave the impression that you had to go home at 5:30? Because it specifies 5:30, and I didn’t know why it would do that if it didn’t matter. RON TATE: Maybe that slipped between the cracks. I do not leave the building sometimes at 5:30, but sometimes I leave at 4:30, and sometimes I leave at 9:30, but I’m never parked in any of the public parking spaces. VICE CHAIR KANE: I didn’t say you were, I’m just saying your Letter of Understanding says 5:30 Monday to Fri and all day on Saturday and Sunday, and I thought that meant less use of the spots so that you could get the six additional spots to which you were assigning to them. No? RON TATE: Well, I didn’t understand your question. Please repeat it. VICE CHAIR KANE: Your Letter of Understanding specifies that after 5:30 Monday to Friday you allow the tenant to use six additional parking spaces, and all day on Saturday and Sunday. So I got the impression that meant to create those six spaces you and your staff had to leave at 5:30, and I asked that question of Staff and they said I think that’s their understanding. If you’re saying it doesn’t matter, why did you put in the 5:30? Why didn’t you just give them the six spaces? LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 46 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RON TATE: That’s in error. VICE CHAIR KANE: The letter is in error? RON TATE: Let me have an error. Yes, yeah. I don't know why it was filled out that way, but we don’t park in the parking spaces, we just never use them. We never use any public parking. VICE CHAIR KANE: So Exhibit 5 is superfluous where it differentiates between 5:30 before and after and weekends? In other words, it really should be just one chart, because you’re dedicating those six spaces 24/7? RON TATE: That is correct. VICE CHAIR KANE: Thank you, sir. CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Mr. Tate. Calling Lee Quintana. LEE QUINTANA: Lee Quintana, 5 Palm Avenue. The Zoning Code under CUP states that, “There are uses that might be compatible with ordinary allowed uses if properly located and regulated. These are called “conditional uses,” and it refers you to the table of the conditional uses. It goes on to say, “however, the list of a conditional use does not indicate that the use must be allowed,” which brings you to the parking issue. Also in the General Plan, under Land-Use Policy 9.3, and this is under the Central Business District, it LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 47 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 says, “encourage a mix of retail and office, except in the CBD designation, where retail should be the emphasis.” I don’t have any particular thing to say about this project itself, but it seems to me that there are trends that seem to be happening: merging spaces, changing spaces from retail uses to less intensive retail with just a partial bit of retail, and alcohol with practically everything. I think these are issues that need to be seriously considered, and that’s all within your discretion, given the fact that that’s exactly what the zoning ordinance actually implies under the CUP designation. The question I have goes back to parking, and that is without knowing what the actual use of the beauty parlor next door is, the number of employees and the number of stations, and people overlapping, et cetera, how do you know that the parking spaces that are allotted in the general parking district are actually not being used by that business? I’m not sure I’ve ever heard of the kind of arrangement that would allow for the use all the time. The alternate parking uses are usually based on the uses being different in time, and so I’m just asking that all that be considered in your deliberation. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 48 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHAIR BADAME: Thank you. Any questions for Ms. Quintana? Seeing none, thank you. Appreciate your comments. All right, we will give the Applicant another five minutes to step back up to the podium and add any further comments about the application. RICK BALLARD: Thank you. First I’ll start with the questions that were posed to Mr. Tate, and try to clarify a little bit around that parking agreement. I think the distinction between daytime and afternoon, this was an agreement that we had posed to Ron, and that’s why he didn’t have a definitive answer, and that basically was a mistake. And perhaps it was a mistake. It came from our discussions over the past, I don't know how long, like I said, over a year or so with Planning Staff and others and our reading of the code. I’d requested at one time that if we could try to get more spaces during the daytime, and at least my interpretation of the understanding was that we could do a parking agreement, but it would have to be an after hours thing, so that’s why the parking agreement was structured that way. If we’re hearing from Planning that that’s irrelevant, that it looks more about the actual use of the parking and the Parking Code, which I think it should be, then you’re right, the distinction between daytime and LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 49 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 evening is kind of moot and it doesn’t belong. So that’s what I would say about that. Also, along the lines of the parking and the plan, I want to clarify that the Town Code describes the calculations. They can be confusing, but there are defined calculations and defined allocations within the Parking District for businesses. It took a while for me to understand them, but they’re very clear, and our use complies with those calculations. Now, one could argue with the rationale behind the calculations to say three to one, does that really fit? I would argue if we were an exercise studio, or a hair or nail salon, three to one may not be appropriate. Four to one is what restaurants use; that’s more appropriate for us. That’s why I feel very comfortable with our parking calculations, because the fact is most people come to our venue in groups; they don’t come like they’re going to go to an exercise studio by themselves. They come in groups, just like going to a restaurant. I imagine the Town put a lot of time into coming up with the calculations and the policies behind parking, and I also know that there are some questions about how those are being applied to other businesses, but I would request that those same doubts don’t be applied to us, LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 50 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 because I think our business model is very different, and I think it’s very conservative actually if you apply those calculations to our business, a three to one. The last thing I’ll mention is there was a public comment about the General Plan and citing specific code, whether or not we meet that. I think if you read the Letter of Justification that we submitted, it cited I think at least ten—I didn’t list them out, and I certainly don’t have time to list them out—different policies, and five within the Land Use Element, and eight or nine within the Human Services Element, that we directly meet, and this isn’t with some broad interpretation of any of them. Again, there’s no time to go through them. It wasn’t necessary, but I think if anybody took the time to see how we really benefit the Town of Los Gatos, I challenge you to find any other business that meets even half of these that we meet, and it’s due to the flexibility of our business. But the only way our business model works is in the way that we’ve proposed, so major changes to that model, meaning drastic changes to the parking or refusal of alcohol, would change our business model and it would probably make it untenable for us. CHAIR BADAME: You still have more time, if you’d like to continue. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 51 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RICK BALLARD: I’m fine, thank you. CHAIR BADAME: Okay. Vice Chair Kane. VICE CHAIR KANE: Mr. Ballard, have you had an opportunity to read the letters, the Desk Items that we received from the neighbors on Broadway? RICK BALLARD: Yes, I did. VICE CHAIR KANE: Okay, thank you. Now, can we put that parking chart back up that you had up earlier? RICK BALLARD: Sure. VICE CHAIR KANE: I’m mildly flabbergasted, which may mean I misunderstood what was just said, but the essence of what was just said is the top chart doesn’t matter, doesn’t exist. What it says is that the promise, if you view it as a promise in complying with Town Code, under students and instructors on the top chart where you promised to have four students for the four instructors, since that chart doesn’t matter anymore since the extra spaces can be allocated to you 24/7, then my word earlier, “superfluous” comes into play, and instead of (inaudible) us 10 and 4, you can do 28 and 4, 24/7. Did I get that right? RICK BALLARD: Now I’m having a little trouble following yours. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 52 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 VICE CHAIR KANE: Well you said the Letter of Understanding was a mistake with respect to the time parameters. RICK BALLARD: Yeah. VICE CHAIR KANE: Of the two charts, the one on top is a function of those two time parameters, daytime. RICK BALLARD: That’s right. VICE CHAIR KANE: And it says daytime you can have 10 student and 4 instructors, but we kind of just said that it’s irrelevant, there is no daytime, there is no nighttime, there is no weekend, the six spaces can be allocated to you 24/7/365, which means instead of 10 and 4, you get 28 and 4, 24/7. The bottom chart is the only chart that exists or has any meaning if the Letter of Understanding was a mistake. RICK BALLARD: If the date qualifications on the letter are a mistake. If we are allowed, and if our understanding with Planning that we had to put time bands on the parking agreement, if the parking agreement could only be in the evening, then if that’s not correct and the parking agreement could be any time, then yes, you’re right, the bottom chart is the correct chart. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 53 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 VICE CHAIR KANE: So your Letter of Understanding was a function of what you thought you heard from Staff? Otherwise, why make any time differentiation? RICK BALLARD: The time restrictions in the Letter of Understanding are what I thought from Staff. It’s very possible that it’s my mistake, but that was my understanding or misunderstanding (inaudible) Staff. VICE CHAIR KANE: I think it’s a good faith misunderstanding, however, you can see where I’m coming from that we’re not going to have 10 and 4, we’re going to have 28 and 4 any time the 28 show up. There’s not daytime restriction. RICK BALLARD: Like I said, if you look at the parking calculations and the practical reality of the parking, of how we could be allowed spaces if in fact they’re not using their spaces, and if those could be allocated to us during the daytime, as you’re suggesting, then yes, we should be allowed to have those numbers under the Town Code. VICE CHAIR KANE: So the question is can you see I’m misled by the top chart, which has no meaning whatsoever, apparently? RICK BALLARD: Yeah, I could see that. It was certainly not intentional. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 54 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 VICE CHAIR KANE: I didn’t say it was. I just had to put that in the form of a question. Thank you. CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Hanssen. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I just had a question. The site has 1,475 square feet allocated to your business, correct? RICK BALLARD: That’s right. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: So my question, just a practical question, is if you had the maximum amount of students and instructors, which on this chart would be 34+2, 36 people, that turns out to be like 40 square feet per person. Is that normal? That doesn’t seem like very much space. Does that work for your business to have that many people in that small of a space? RICK BALLARD: It depends on the time of an event, but yeah, sometimes we’ll have events where it’s just more of an appetizer making class, where everybody doesn’t sit down, but there are stations and people can go around, for example, corporate events. People go around and they can go to different stations and they can cook, and it’s more on their feet, moving around. Our current location, like I said, is 2,100 square feet, and we can accommodate much larger parties than 34 people. Like I said, the reality is if we have a LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 55 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 party that large, there are very few circumstances where we’d probably have two people. More often we’d want more staff, and that’s why I wanted the sliding scale. I want to be able to add more staff. But yeah, there are instances where we would only need two staff, depending on the type of event, if it’s more of a meeting type of an event. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: That answers my question, thank you. CHAIR BADAME: Any further questions? Seeing none, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Ballard. We will now close the public testimony portion of the hearing and ask if any Commissioners have any questions, comments or motions? Commissioner Erekson. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: This is probably a question for the Chair and for Mr. Paulson. Ms. Renn happens to be in attendance, so would it be appropriate to let her be a Staff person that we could ask questions of? CHAIR BADAME: I think that would be an excellent idea. Mr. Paulson? JOEL PAULSON: That is perfectly fine. I’d just like to clarify the parking concerns so that we can get that squared away. Alternating use of parking, there is specific Town Code language that speaks to, “Some uses LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 56 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 generating parking demands primarily during hours when the remaining uses are closed.” So Staff’s understanding is that those would be vacated. You can’t allocate parking space, whether you're using them or not, onsite for the 24/7 scenario that you’ve allocated. So the two charts do apply, but the requirements would be that those businesses would have to be closed, so you’d need to make that distinction. VICE CHAIR KANE: So the clarification is unnecessary, but there’s been some confusion and I just want to do it again. The reason we had the distinction to create the six spaces is we closed the business. That means I have to leave at 5:30 and I can’t work on weekends, neither my staff nor myself, is that correct? JOEL PAULSON: Correct. CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Erekson. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: I have a follow up question to that. Is it possible to condition this use on the presence of the apparent type of agreement that there is between the landlord or the owner and the Toll House to help address? In other words, can we write a condition into this Conditional Use Permit that would require the landowner to have in place, and on file with the Town, an LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 57 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 agreement to add parking spaces, and it could either be specific to the Toll House or some other location in town? JOEL PAULSON: You could, however, we also would have to bring in the Toll House, because they would need a CUP to allow for alternating use of parking, and they’d have to show that they have excess parking from what they currently need on their space. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: Right, I understand that, but it would be permissible to do that? JOEL PAULSON: It could, but it couldn’t be approved until that agreement had been reached. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: I understand. CHAIR BADAME: Ms. Renn, thank you for stepping in on short notice. Do we have questions for Ms. Renn? Commissioner Erekson. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: Thank you for being here. There are people at your house who would prefer your being there, I assume. I have a couple of questions for you that I’m going to ask at the same time, and I’ve got another question I’ll keep apart. The first part of it is do you have general comments about this particular type of business, and in your judgment, since you have the greatest sensitivity to LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 58 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the economic vitality of the downtown, even general comments about that? Then I’ll do two subsets to that. They talked about a destination business, and so in your comments about it can you talk about that concept? I don’t need to elaborate more, I’m sure you know what I’m talking about. And then if in fact one were to not have the top half of the parking chart, and it were possible for it to be extended for 24/7, are there other reasons, based on your knowledge of business activity in that part of the Central Business District, that it would be wise to limit the parking, or have a different parking standard either for those specified times, or for other specified times? MONICA RENN: I see this as a perfect type of business for the time that we’re in in the retail world, and I think that Mr. Machado touched on it a little bit. A conversation we’ve had I think in other meetings between us and at Council is we do see these hybrid businesses over and over. I think we often hear the term “People need something to show up for.” Just standalone retail is not the strongest market right now, and certainly not on South Santa Cruz; there is no foot traffic. Once you get to that Lyndon Plaza, people do go there to stop and eat, but they LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 59 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 don’t typically travel past. There’s not much there; the U- turn of the foot traffic kind of happens there. We notice the Main Street Bridge. While there are 51 retailers on Main Street, people will turn the corner on Main Street and they get to the bridge and it trickles off. It’s just the behavior of how people shop. I worked a long time with Mr. and Mrs. Ballard on different locations. We looked all over Los Gatos, and really this does seem like a great fit. It’s something that you could walk to if you live around there, and there are schools and pre-schools nearby that could do field trips to it. In my opinion, it’s a great fit. I had the benefit to visit their other location for my own personal use, and I see that being something that will fit in our community. As far as the second question, I think that people find parking. We have events that bring in 850 people. We had the Great Race and our sustainability event in one day a couple of weeks ago, and we were greatly impacted, probably had 1,500 extra people here in town, and still had people shopping, still had people dining, and still had enough for people to park and pick up their friends from the race. We had an entire parking lot closed. I think people can find parking. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 60 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 So while we don’t have places to file millions and millions of cars, I don’t think that the difference between 22, 28 or 31 students is going to make or break anything. Does that answer the questions? CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Erekson. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: So there wouldn’t be any particular rationale, aside from the alternative parking regulation. Those kinds of considerations, just from pure economic vitality, there’s no particular reason to differentiate from whatever the maximum might be allowed? MONICA RENN: I don’t think there is, no. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: Okay, thank you. CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Hudes. COMMISSIONER HUDES: As a follow up to the parking question, I asked the question earlier and I’d be interested in your perspective on it. There are businesses there now, and at one time those businesses were vibrant. They generated some parking demand. What’s your assessment of this new business versus these other businesses when they were vibrant? MONICA RENN: From the parking perspective of what I think the delta would be, it’s interesting, because I think that the majority of the people just, again, out of behavior, will go to that location or go even to Willow LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 61 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Street or something, but I don't know that they would necessarily go down and turn up Broadway to park. I think the majority of people would be looking at that parking lot maybe where the Chamber of Commerce is, or some of those other well-known public spots. I can’t imagine that there will be a large amount of people that will go to that spot first and then look for parking, except for maybe the person who is not familiar with our town. But for the majority of people, if you know something is on South Santa Cruz, you’re likely to start looking for a parking spot at Elm or one of the other parking lots, so I don’t particularly think that this would cause that much difference. COMMISSIONER HUDES: As a follow up, are there other businesses where the business themselves tells their customers about alternatives for parking? MONICA RENN: Give an example of what you’re asking; I’m not sure I’m clear on that. COMMISSIONER HUDES: This is a business that isn’t a drop-in business; this is a business that’s scheduled ahead. Are there other businesses in town that are scheduled ahead where the business owner suggests where people might park if there isn’t parking right next door? LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 62 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MONICA RENN: Absolutely. I think the personal services would be a great example of that. If you have an appointment and you know it six weeks out, and maybe you go to that same person every six weeks, you may have a conversation with them about where do you park, or they may say we suggest you park here. Another suggestion could be coming to a restaurant. If you have reservations and you know you have a party of 12, you may ask them or they may suggest where you park. We don’t have any obvious guidelines or rules that people do that, but I think just in general we also have the Chamber of Commerce that serves as our visitation center, and they will often give people suggestions on where to look for public parking. CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Hanssen. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I just was curious as to your opinion. I don't know if this analogy is going to make sense. If you were trying to compare this, and since it’s different than anything else we have… I don’t even know if it’s still there, but remember Petroglyph, where they had kid’s parties; it was on Santa Cruz? It’s still there? MONICA RENN: Yes. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Okay. Do you think this is more like Petroglyph or is it more like Orangetheory LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 63 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Fitness? I’m just trying to frame the parking in my mind; that would kind of be the range of things. I would just like to see what you thought. MONICA RENN: I don’t think it’s really either. I think it’s probably a combination. The idea of having a drop-in I think is where… Staff would often do that same thing. We get an Applicant that comes in and we say what are they like? What avenue are we going to push them down? We saw that with We Olive, I think, that they came in and they had all these different facets that didn’t necessarily fit into one box that we were used to seeing. I think Cucina Bambini is a good example of that. As far as marketing or a draw of clientele, I would see them being closer to a Petroglyph where you do… I mean I’m deep in the birthday party circuit with my own family, and I know you often take three kids and someone else picks those kids up, so it is an accurate statement to say that it’s not one car per person that’s coming to those classes. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: So in that sense it’s very different than the fitness model? MONICA RENN: Yeah. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: Thank you. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 64 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHAIR BADAME: Thank you, Ms. Renn. Vice Chair Kane. VICE CHAIR KANE: You said you’d work with the Applicant, so I’m trying to find a suitable location. I imagine that involves a length of time of working with them to get things worked out. Did it ever come up on the confusion regarding the six extra spaces requiring that the operations upstairs be closed and shut down after 5:30 and on weekends? MONICA RENN: For me personally, I think because I work with the code so often, it didn’t seem confusing to me. We often look at parameters around office hours, shared parking is something that comes up quite a bit, especially with bank lots and things, so to be honest, it wasn’t something that I even thought twice about. VICE CHAIR KANE: But it seems confusing to them, the two versions that we’ve heard tonight. MONICA RENN: I don't know, I didn’t… VICE CHAIR KANE: I know you’ve got the economic vitality. What I’m looking at is less vitality. It’s more like which is it, chart number one or chart number two? And if the Applicant doesn’t understand the businesses need to be closed down, then that may not be acceptable to the LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 65 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Applicant. It seems germane to the whole question. What do you think? MONICA RENN: There’s the question. You know what? We do this a lot; we look at shared parking a lot, so I think that it’s actually a reasonable thing to do. It’s a question that we hear over and over when we bring things to Council: Why do we have empty office lots at nights when other jurisdictions ask their restaurants and their nighttime businesses to use those? This is one opportunity that we have when we can do that. VICE CHAIR KANE: The other question is are you aware of any requirement on certification for childcare of children at night or in any such setting? MONICA RENN: I agree with what the Applicant said about the amount of few hours that you could do a drop-off. It’s done in a lot of places, these Parent’s Night Out, it’s a very common thing and the employees can run it. The parents make the choice to leave their kids there for that short a period of time. VICE CHAIR KANE: Thank you. Thank you for being here. MONICA RENN: Of course. CHAIR BADAME: Thank you. Commissioner Hudes. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 66 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 COMMISSIONER HUDES: I just wanted to understand from Staff, where in the language does it permit childcare? JOEL PAULSON: It doesn’t permit childcare. COMMISSIONER HUDES: So childcare is excluded? JOEL PAULSON: Parent’s Night Out is another class setting. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Okay. CHAIR BADAME: Thank you. All right, any further discussion amongst Commissioners? Commissioner Erekson. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: Mr. Paulson has been very patient with me over the years I’ve been on the Planning Commission, so I want to ask his patience again. Can you back up to what you said to us about the alternate parking spaces and kind of go over that again? I think I have most this sorted out for myself, and then how what you said applies to whether Exhibit 5 should look like Exhibit 5 if in fact one were to potentially incorporate that as a part of the Conditions of Approval? JOEL PAULSON: Sure. Ms. Puga can put that up on the screen. If you can zoom up the alternating use piece. So it’s in the Town Code, 29.10.150(e), Alternating Use of Parking. As you can see up there I was just paraphrasing some of that, and where some of the uses generate parking demands primarily during hours when the LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 67 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 remaining uses are closed, alternating use of space is allowed, but only if specifically authorized by the Conditional Use Permit. So from Staff’s perspective, and I’ll let Ms. Puga, who obviously has done most of the interaction with the Applicants, speak to this further. But from Staff’s perspective, the two charts are applicable if they are going to meet the requirements of Town Code. CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Erekson. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: I have a follow up question to that, and I’m not sure of all the Staff if you were including potentially the Assistant Town Attorney. When we have public testimony that there is an apparent agreement between the Toll House and the owner of this property to use on a regular basis, apparently—if none of us have seen it, I assume that you haven’t—to occupy six spaces in the Toll House. Do we have a duty or responsibility to understand whether that exists, and whether that causes the Toll House to have a deficiency in its parking, and should that be taken into consideration before we make our recommendation to the Town Council? I mean we could obviously make a recommendation that says check this out, Council, but ultimately before this LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 68 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Conditional Use Permit would be approved by the Town. Do you understand the question that I’m asking? JOEL PAULSON: Yes, generally I understand the question. The options are one, to fold it into part of your recommendation that that be addressed. Staff would have to do some analysis of the Toll House. They technically would have to have a current CUP with the Toll House for alternating use of parking in that scenario, which I don’t believe exists, and so that becomes problematic from that perspective. Given the code language, I wouldn’t suggest… I’ll defer to the Town Attorney, but you stray from the alternating use language in the code, but again, you can make that part of the recommendation and ultimately the Council has the ability to interpret the Town Code. I haven’t seen it done that way in the past. All of the ones that I can recall have been when businesses are closed. That’s when those parking spaces, whether it’s credits or actual parking spaces, are freed up for the other use. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: Thank you. CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Hanssen. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I just want to make a comment. I thought that based on the testimony from the Applicant, and I know from me looking at their website, it LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 69 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 seems like the majority of their business is in the evenings and on the weekends, maybe with the exception of the summer because there are summer camps for kids on weekdays. So I’m not really sure what the big deal is about having additional spaces between 10:30am and 5:30pm Monday through Friday, when the issue is really that most of the traffic that they’re going to generate is the evenings and the weekends. So that was my comment. CHAIR BADAME: Appreciate that. Commissioner Hudes. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Maybe I could get the ball rolling a little bit. I’m trying to balance the desire to have a really thriving downtown, particularly in the face of the challenges that will be presented with the North 40 and the amount of retail that has been approved in the specific plan there. Given the changing definition of retail and the challenges that are coming, I am very favorable to this type of use, however, I think that as I’m reading the application it’s heavy on the use and not very heavy on the conditions, and so I have seven conditions that I’ve been thinking about that would make it more in balance and more acceptable in my mind. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 70 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 The first one would be to specifically exclude its use as a childcare facility. The second one would be that staff would be present during the time when non-employee chefs host their own events. The third is that alcohol will not be served during children’s events. The fourth would be to require the landlord to have an agreement for offsite parking, which I think would delay actually the final approval of this until that was proven. The fifth one would be to have a review after three months, six months, and then annually. The sixth one would be to inform customers, particularly in the case of booking events in advance, of alternative parking locations, the responsibility of the business owner to do that. Then finally the seventh one, the chart and the maximums. I per the testimony of the Applicant, I think the top numbers are just not realistic, the 19/1, so I would drop down to 16/2, 13/3, 10/4, and 7/5, and exclude the 19/1 during the day and the evening. Again, per the testimony of the Applicant, I would exclude the 34/2 and LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 71 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 drop down to the 31/3, 28/4, 25/5 and 22/6, and specify those as maximums in the Conditional Use Permit. So those are some thoughts. CHAIR BADAME: I have some questions for you, Commissioner Hudes. With the condition of no alcohol during children’s events, there are parent/child classes, so would that include the parent/child classes where the parent might want to drink alcohol? COMMISSIONER HUDES: In my mind that would. It would be excluded during that time as well. So it would be adult only events where alcohol would be permitted I think would be acceptable. CHAIR BADAME: Thank you for that clarification. Any further discussion? Commissioner Erekson. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: A couple of questions for my esteemed Commissioner colleague. If I understand correctly, because a childcare facility is a particular use and has a definition, and the use is specified in this and the use does not include a childcare facility, it also doesn’t include many other uses. I’m not sure of your rationale for specifically wanting to incorporate land for excluding a use that isn’t named. That’s a question for you. I’ve got some other questions about some of your others. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 72 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 COMMISSIONER HUDES: That may be a question for Staff as well as to whether that’s necessary, but there seemed to be in the application—that’s why I was asking the question before—the possibility of children being dropped off for childcare while parents go somewhere else. Not there for a class, but for childcare. Is that something that’s explicitly outlined in the application? JOEL PAULSON: I would look to Ms. Puga on whether or not there’s any specification of the Parent’s Night Out, but we would not consider that a childcare facility, if that’s what you’re looking at. But Ms. Puga might be able to offer some additional information. JOCELYN PUGA: I don’t have much to offer besides what the Applicant provided as their description of what the parent night class is, and then again refer to what the director said, that we define childcare in our Town Code, what size and what specifications that are required, and the conditions on this permit would be for group-cooking classes and do not include daycare. COMMISSIONER HUDES: In that sense, in response, I would exclude Parent’s Night Out from a permitted use. But dropping children for a class where the children are enrolled in a class I would say would be a permitted use. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 73 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 COMMISSIONER EREKSON: Chair Badame, can I ask some additional questions? CHAIR BADAME: Yes, Commissioner Erekson, go ahead. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: The fifth condition was a three month, six month, and annual review, so I assumed that meant annually a review. I wasn’t clear whether it was at the end of a year, or if it was each year, but more important to me than that is what is being reviewed at the end of three months, what is being reviewed at the end of six months, and what is being reviewed either at the end of 12 months or each year, and what’s the purpose of that review? COMMISSIONER HUDES: To get to the first point, in my mind it would be three months after the approval, six months after the approval, and then annually thereafter, depending on how Staff does these things, whether they do them on a calendar basis or whether they track them on an individual permission basis; I don't know which way they operate. With regard to what’s being reviewed, to me it’s the conditions in the permits and are they being met, in particular there are some that I think are ones that are a little tricky, the sliding scale and the parking. Are there LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 74 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 conflicts on the parking, and are all the conditions in the permit being met? CHAIR BADAME: I have a question for you, Commissioner Hudes. Staff recommended no alcohol in the drop-in area, because technically cupcakes aren’t really considered a meal. With what you are proposing with the added conditions, how do you feel about that, especially if it’s just adults that might be in the drop-in area that are decorating cupcakes, and not necessarily children? COMMISSIONER HUDES: To me the issue wasn’t about the area that was being used, it was about the presence of children. For me, I wouldn’t adopt that recommendation; I would just go with alcohol would not be served during children’s events. CHAIR BADAME: Thank you. Vice Chair Kane. VICE CHAIR KANE: Commissioner Hudes, there is the concern whether or not children are present, but the drop- off zone, decorating a cupcake is not a meal, and that’s the thing we’re trying to get at with their recommended restriction on alcohol, so as you’ve got it proposed I wouldn’t support that. It’s about whether or not there’s a meal, and the fact that it’s being served in whatever location where alcohol is being served. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 75 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I wanted to continue, Madam Chair, with what’s becoming for me the $64 question. On that chart that we had up on the wall, Commissioner Hanssen, I wasn’t concerned with 9/5, I’m concerned with understanding the six spots that are created in the evening and on weekends, and the fact that there may be some confusion on the Applicant’s part when he stated, “I work nights and weekends.” I work nights and weekends; I appreciate that. But if you or your staff does work nights and weekends, vis-à-vis what you’ve got up on the wall that says “Closed,” that means the office is closed, and I wouldn’t want that condition to be imposed on anybody, and especially me, because it’s not practical. I couldn’t run a business that way where I have to leave at 5:30 and on weekends, and I’m not sure the Applicant understood that, because he said the letter was a mistake and the time limits were not that material, which vacates the top chart and gets us back to 24/7 I can do all that parking stuff. I don’t think it was understood that if we go with allocation of those six spots after hours, unfortunately the office has got to be closed nights and weekends. I don't know what I would do if it comes to making a recommendation without understanding how the Applicant feels about that restriction and whether or not LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 76 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that’s a viable restriction going forward. The whole thing is going to come undone if that’s not understood. I don't know how to do that without reopening the public hearing, which I’d recommend. JOEL PAULSON: Again, your recommendation moving forward. This still has to go to the Town Council, and so if you have a strong opinion one way or the other, then that could be part of the recommendation from this body. VICE CHAIR KANE: I don’t have that strong an opinion, the Applicant does. “I’m going to work nights and weekends,” which I totally appreciate, but it’s going to come at cost, given what you’ve shown up on the board. JOEL PAULSON: Most definitely. VICE CHAIR KANE: So then the conditions will be unintentionally violated. JOEL PAULSON: Well, the conditions will be modified as appropriate by the Town Council, and a determination will be made, and they’ll have to function under whatever conditions are approved. VICE CHAIR KANE: I understand. CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Hanssen. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I just wanted to make a general comment, and then I would be prepared to make a motion. In hearing all the testimony I initially was pretty LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 77 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 concerned. I actually think this is a good use for the location. I do think it is a bit risky, only because it’s a business model that we aren’t familiar with and we’re not sure how it’s going to work. I feel that if we have a review I could deal with a year from now if we have some kind of review in place relative to what’s been happening with the parking, what’s been happening with the compliance with our Alcoholic Beverage Policy, and then I could be comfortable moving forward. That being the case, I do want to make a motion to recommend to Council to request approval for the Conditional Use Permit Application U-16-003 to operate group-cooking classes with beer and wine service and alternative use of parking on property zoned C-2, APN 510- 45-014. I can make the finding that the project is categorically exempt pursuant to the adopted guidelines, the implementation of CEQA. I can make the findings for the Conditional Use Permit as required by Section 29-20-190 of the Town Code: “The deciding body may grant a Conditional Use Permit if it finds that the proposed use of the property is essential or desirable to the public’s convenience of welfare,” because it provides a cooking LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 78 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 school service to Los Gatos residents. The proposed use will not impair the integrity and character of the zone, because it’s a commercial use and would be located in a commercial zone. The proposed use would not be detrimental to public health, safety or general welfare, and the conditions regarding the parking agreement, operating hours, and service of alcoholic beverages placed on the permit would maintain the welfare of the community. The proposed use of the property is in harmony with the variance elements and objectives with the General Plan and the purposes of the Town Code. I can also make the required finding for the redevelopment plan for the Central Los Gatos Redevelopment Project Area, that the proposed project is consistent with the redevelopment plan for the Central Los Gatos Redevelopment Project Area, and that the project is designated commercial and it falls within general commercial uses. I would like to add some of the conditions that Commissioner Hudes suggested, for example, the ones that I thought were important would be to add a condition that the Applicant should take the responsibility of informing customers of alternate parking arrangements, that staff must be present when there’s a non-employee leading a LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 79 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cooking class, and that there be no alcohol at events that include children. I thought that Commissioner Hudes’ suggestion of eliminating the 19/1 and the 34/2 on the chart in Exhibit 5 was worth incorporating as well. So that’s my motion. CHAIR BADAME: Do we have a second? We do not have a second. Motion fails. Commissioner Hudes. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Let me try to take it a step further. I agree with the motion that was made previously, but I would add to that motion that we would require the landlord to have an agreement for offsite parking, that there would be a three month, six month and annual review, that childcare would be an excluded use, and that the numbers mentioned in the table would be maximum numbers in the Conditional Use Permit. CHAIR BADAME: All right, the Town Attorney would like to step in. LYNN LAMPROS: Thank you. With regard to the offsite agreement with the Toll House, I would inform or comment that the Conditional Use Permit that is before us does not contemplate or require that Mr. Tate commit to parking at the Toll House Hotel. Mr. Tate’s business or property comes with nine-plus parking spots. It is only after the technical close of this business that six of LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 80 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 those are allocated to Cucina Bambini. If those six spots were allocated, say, during the day the Commission might be interested in understanding the provision for offsite parking, but that is not a feature of what’s before us, therefore I don’t think it’s a legally tenable requirement to have him prove that he has a parking agreement with Toll House. I think it was being offered as sort of a plum, as if to say look, I don’t even park there at all. But the fact of the matter is all that’s before us is there are nine-plus spots, and after the close of business six are allocated to Cucina Bambini, which allows for three for the possibility of nighttime and overtime work. So I’m not sure that I would suggest that that’s not really a legally tenable requirement. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Would it be, and we can go back to the record, if the Applicant has stated that he has such an agreement in place? LYNN LAMPROS: You can direct that he prove it, but this CUP isn’t contingent on that agreement. It wasn’t contemplated in this project, so I would say there’s not a nexus between making him prove it and this particular application. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 81 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 With regard to the childcare facility, I would suggest that there are very strict and specific state laws regarding childcare facilities. If the Commission were interested in directing Staff to show that, if you wished to pass this on to Council with any kind of recommendation, you could ask for a definition of that to see whether this business falls into a childcare facility. My relatively informed but not very researched opinion is that it just does not fall into the state requirements as a childcare facility, so they’re not going to need to meet certain of those criterion, but you could ask for a definition, I suppose, to satisfy yourself that it doesn’t constitute a childcare facility. COMMISSIONER HUDES: My concern is about the Parent’s Night Out, which is where children are dropped off for childcare, not for cooking classes. LYNN LAMPROS: I’m not sure that’s accurate. I think that they’re dropped off for classes that in effect serve as childcare while the parents go to dinner, but they are a class; they’re not just running lose. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Then I don’t see why that has to be differentiated at all in the use permit. I don’t think we should even address that, because whether it’s day or night, there are going to be situations where children LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 82 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 are dropped off to do the class, so I would prefer to remove the Parent’s Night Out if it’s anywhere in the application. JOEL PAULSON: If we can get clarification, part of your motion is that they not be permitted to do Parent’s Night Out? COMMISSIONER HUDES: Correct. JOEL PAULSON: Which would be also meaning that you don’t want them to do any child classes where that child could be dropped off? COMMISSIONER HUDES: No, what I’m saying is when there’s not a class, where it’s just purely childcare. JOEL PAULSON: I think in the Applicant’s letter they say that Parent’s Night Out are classes, so classes will be performed. I think I understand, you’re saying that it has to be in conjunction with a class; it cannot just be having the children dropped off. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Correct, and I’d be open to you suggesting language to address that issue. CHAIR BADAME: Vice Chair Kane followed by Commissioner Erekson. VICE CHAIR KANE: To the Town Attorney, in your discussion with Commissioner Hudes you went from six to LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 83 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 nine on the three spots. Did you say that the business would not have to be closed? LYNN LAMPROS: I did not say that. I said that the way our code is written it allows for alternating parking with businesses that have distinct closures, like a bank. VICE CHAIR KANE: So we’re back to 5:30 closed, and closed on weekends? LYNN LAMPROS: Correct, but it’s not a complete allocation of all nine spots. VICE CHAIR KANE: I’m going to try to support the motion with one addition, but however we get it to Town Council, that needs to be resolved that the Applicants and landlords all understand what allocating spots means, and that they can live with that an abide by that. It seems to me to be an onerous condition and there might be another way around it, but if you’re going to commit to it then you’ve got to commit to it, but it just seems to be very, very difficult to commit to that. To the maker of the motion, I wonder if you’d be willing to add to your motion Staff’s comment that no alcohol service be… LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 84 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHAIR BADAME: Wait, we don’t have a second yet. I believe we have to have a second before we add to the motion, or am I mistaken? VICE CHAIR KANE: I’m in discussion period here. CHAIR BADAME: Okay. VICE CHAIR KANE: I’m discussing. CHAIR BADAME: Go ahead. VICE CHAIR KANE: To the maker of the motion, I’m discussing would you also include the Staff recommendation that no alcohol service be permitted in the drop-in space. That essentially violates the Alcohol Policy, which says alcohol shall not be served unless there’s a meal served as well, and it’s been discussed that cupcakes or whatever is going on in the drop-in space in no way constitutes a meal. COMMISSIONER HUDES: I need to be educated a little bit on that point, because I’m not in favor of not allowing alcohol in that particular room in the business. To me that is a natural room to be used for wine to be served with dinner when adults are preparing dinner and then go in and sit down, so I don’t think that makes as much sense. Where I need to be educated is how the Alcohol Policy deals with food, and does it say “meal” or does it say “food”? LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 85 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 VICE CHAIR KANE: Well, at the risk of pretending to be an educator… COMMISSIONER HUDES: I’m just trying to get a response from Staff on that. VICE CHAIR KANE: A meal is not popcorn, not shrimp, not chips, not dips, but a meal is a meal, and in the drop-in place there’s not going to be any meals served. There are going to be cupcakes decorated, or whatever the Applicant said in his letter, and I’m strongly opposed to alcohol service unless there’s a meal. Moreover, as you get to it, there’s no other place in town that serves beer and wine unless it’s a restaurant, so we’re already going down a new corridor if not a slippery slope, assigning that permit to this service. You want to review it every three and six months. I think that’s prudent, and we have space to make that recommendation at Council, but I don’t think we have any space to recommend a violation of the Alcohol Policy. CHAIR BADAME: I’m going to allow our Community Development Director to step in here. Mr. Paulson, would you like to comment? JOEL PAULSON: Just to get back to Commissioner Hudes’ original question, actually I think the way that the LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 86 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 condition is currently worded, which is Condition 9 of Exhibit 3, actually meets your intent. To Vice Chair Kane, I don’t think Commissioner Hudes is saying that you should be having beer and wine with cupcakes, but I think during their public testimony the Applicant stated, as Commissioner Hudes, did that that would be an ideal place to put tables up for after you’re done cooking; you go and you eat your meal and you could have wine. This limits the service of beer and wine as permitted only with meals, and so regardless of location, that I think covers at least what Commissioner Hudes is looking for, and then it further defines what a meal is. VICE CHAIR KANE: Well that would still support Staff’s recommendation that beer and wine not be served in the drop-in zone for the drop-ins to decorate a cupcake. It will be for people having a meal that they brought from the main room. JOEL PAULSON: Correct. VICE CHAIR KANE: Okay. COMMISSIONER HUDES: And to be clear, my motion does not include language about the drop-in zone, but it does include Item 9, which says, “The service of beer and wine is permitted only with meals,” and then goes on from there. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 87 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHAIR BADAME: Are we clear on that, Vice Chair Kane? All right, do we have a second? Motion fails. VICE CHAIR KANE: Whoa, let me go… I’m sorry. I didn’t want to be talking all night long, but I’ll second the motion. We’re making a recommendation to Town Council. We’re not setting policy, we’re not agreeing, we’re not denying, we’re sending a recommendation to Town Council, and I’m just one voice, but I think what Commissioner Hudes has come up with is reasonably prudent, so I’ll second the motion. CHAIR BADAME: All right. We have discussion. Commissioner Erekson has got his hand up. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: I think I know what the motion is, but I’m not sure. But I would make some observations with respect to Commissioner Hudes’ concern about Parent’s Night Out. In the letter from the Applicant, Parent’s Night Out is actually in the section of kid’s classes, so I think it’s pretty clear that’s the intent of the Applicant. It’s a type of kid’s class; it’s not a separate category in their letter that’s part of their support of their application, so that seems to me to be not an issue. That’s just informational from my perspective. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 88 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I think the motion still would include something that would explicitly exclude a childcare facility. If that’s the case, I couldn’t support the motion, because we would have to have a limitless number of exclusions. It seems like to me we specify use and we don’t specify what are not uses, so I couldn’t support a motion that would exclude a particular use; there doesn’t seem to be a logic to that. Then it’s not clear to me the reason for excluding, and what we gain from excluding, the 19/1 and 34/2 in the chart. As a matter of fact, in his testimony the Applicant used 19/1, a business association, as an example of where they might do that. Well, it wasn’t usual, but they might do that. I could see that happening. I could see them, for example, hosting a limited Chamber event where they wouldn’t need but one staff person there, so I’m not sure what that gains us by eliminating that, and I’m not sure what it gains us by the 34/2 given that they might… I mean I can’t imagine I’m going to have a viable business and I’d have too many people there that I couldn’t provide good, quality service to. So I guess I would have to respect the way they run their business. But I would support the intent of Commissioner Hudes as including the chart, and that’s Exhibit 5, as LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 89 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 greater clarification of what is Conditions 6 and 7 where there are not maximums, so I would think there would be ways that one could incorporate an appropriate Exhibit 5 as the way to express what the limitations and boundaries are, because I’m a bit uncomfortable with the language that’s in the use permits myself now. While I understand you could get to it from the language that’s in there, I just think it’s better to be very explicit about that. My other observation is that while there was testimony in response to a question that I asked that people that drop in would be seen by the Applicant as students. Assuming that they’re very successful with their business and they’re here 15 years from now or something, and they’re thriving and we think it’s the best addition to that end of downtown ever, history then gets lost sometimes, so I would suggest that we might use the term “instructors and staff” and “instructors/staff,” so it’s clear, because there could be staff there that weren’t technically instructors at a time that might need to be there, and that would be clearer. Also, “students and customers,” or some language like that, because the drop-in situation, if I understand what they contemplate for that and I’ve actually visited their place in the past, I don't know that I would consider drop-in people as students LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 90 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 necessarily in the way that there’s an explicit class going on, so I would be interested in those kinds of things. Then I do have a question for Mr. Paulson, since one of his three departments now is the Compliance Department. While I’m not opposed to reviews, I guess to be sure that people are complying with a Conditional Use Permit, and I’m not saying we shouldn’t ever ensure that people are responsible for it, but it’s not clear, if I understood the maker of the motion, some of it was about to be sure that parking is working out okay. Well, I’m not sure how I measure that it’s not working out okay. The Town has a set of standards that they use to allocate parking spaces, and as long as they’re doing that, unless they not egregiously saying we don’t want people to come here and go to our classes unless they come one in a car and they create kinds of problems, something like that, I’m not sure how we would effectively enforce, or be sure they’re complying, with in fact the code. JOEL PAULSON: Obviously that’s close to a residential neighborhood, the Broadway area. The citizens there are very engaged, and so if things become challenging from a parking perspective, then we would look at that three-, six-, nine-year, whatever those time periods are, LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 91 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 we would look to code compliance to see how many complaints they and/or other Staff had received relating to any of those issues, whether it’s noise or parking. CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Hudes. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Thank you, and I appreciate the comments. Let me see if I can address them, and maybe in reverse order. With regard to the review, my intention was to ask that the review be done such that the Applicant is in compliance with the Conditional Use Permit, and not go beyond that review. With respect to the definition of customers and students and instructors and staff, I agree with that completely. I sort of ran out of time to say that when I was describing it myself, so I would suggest we use that wording that you suggested. With respect to the maximums in the table, I went back to the testimony of the Applicant and I am concerned about the intensity that the project will generate, and so if the Applicant says that it’s viable to run this at 31/3, then that’s what I think the maximum should be, rather than something above that that was in their initial requirement. So I would prefer to stay with the 31/3 as the top number, and the 16/2 as the top number, just because I think it LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 92 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 makes sense in terms of having at least some impact on the intensity. Then with respect to the first point about excluding childcare use, I think I made that in my initial comments, but that was not part of my motion. My motion was to have Staff address the issue about the question of whether Parent’s Night Out would be simply childcare, and it was clarified to me that it included classes, and so I’m satisfied with that and I don’t think we need any language with respect to that first point. CHAIR BADAME: Thank you. Vice Chair Kane. VICE CHAIR KANE: Commissioner Hudes, referring to Exhibit 5, those top two lines that you made reference to are simply an extension of the ratio of how many spaces are required and committed. He’s not committing to 19/1 or 34/2, but that’s what he could have under the parking ratios, whether or not they ever get used; it’s simply an example of what he could have, I think. COMMISSIONER HUDES: I also clarified that those numbers would be a maximum, whereas the application does not specify a maximum. VICE CHAIR KANE: So you want to eliminate those two line items? LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 93 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 COMMISSIONER HUDES: I would take the first line item off the table as a maximum on both tables. VICE CHAIR KANE: Right, that’s what I meant. I’m not sure how you’d do that other than the ratios; it’s simple mathematics. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Well, you end up with 31/3 is 34, and 28/4, which is the next one down, is only 32. VICE CHAIR KANE: Okay. We’re making a recommendation. I’m okay with that. COMMISSIONER HUDES: It’s a smaller number, and that’s what I’m suggesting. CHAIR BADAME: Okay, so we have a motion and a second on the table. Is there any further discussion before I call the question? Commissioner Erekson. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: It would be helpful to me if the Staff could actually review the motion and clarify exactly what the motion is that we’re voting on, because I want to be sure that I’m being an informed voter. JOEL PAULSON: I’ll start, and then anyone can fill in. Typically what we will do is just review the videotape so we make sure we don’t miss anything, and even following this conversation we’ll do that as well. We have a motion from Commissioner Hudes to incorporate the elements from Commissioner Hanssen’s LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 94 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 original motion, which was staff present when there are non-employee instructors present; no alcohol during kid’s events; that the landlord enter into an agreement with Toll House; that there be a review at three, six, nine months and one year from when the business starts operation; that the Applicants will inform customers of parking options in town; that the maximums become the 16 students and 2 instructors as a maximum for the daytime use, and that the 31 students and 3 instructors be the maximum at the evening and weekend timeframe; and also we are going to add the language from Commissioner Erekson on the “instructor/staff” and “student/customer.” I think that’s the last one I have on my list. COMMISSIONER HUDES: With respect to the maximums, it would be to include that full table that gets into the ratios as well. JOEL PAULSON: Adding a reference to that chart. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Correct. JOEL PAULSON: Okay. CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Hanssen. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: I’m not sure I’m clear about the additional idea of the agreement. We already have a copy of the letter from the landlord and the tenant saying that there is an agreement to allocate six of the LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 95 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 parking spots, so I’m not sure what the additional expectation would be. Then I was thinking of our attorney’s comments that this could significantly delay the process, because it essentially would have to be another CUP for the Toll House, so I’m kind of uncomfortable with that. I just wanted to make sure I understood the intent and what it really meant. COMMISSIONER HUDES: I think this is a technical issue that I would prefer Staff to recommend how to deal with that. I think I’ve heard some different opinions on it. I think that it’s important, but I don’t think that creating a legal nightmare is what we’re trying to do here. COMMISSIONER HANSSEN: So would you be taking that off of your addition to the motion? It’s a recommendation that it should be looked at by Council. COMMISSIONER HUDES: Yeah, I think it’s simpler to take that off for now, and if Staff thinks about it before it goes to Council and wants to make a suggested change, then that would be their purview to make a suggestion. CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Erekson. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: I think I’ve got it. I just have one clarification. The restriction on “No alcohol at kid’s events,” quote and unquote, that was Joel’s LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 96 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 wording, does that mean events which are exclusively children’s events? Events at which, I assume, the intent of that would be events at which there are minors, or to exclude any event where this is a minor, or events at which there were only minors? Those are two different things. COMMISSIONER HUDES: It was my intention that alcohol not be served during children’s events, and that means when children are present. So it would be permissible on the converse to serve alcohol when it’s an adult only event. JOEL PAULSON: Thank you for that clarification. Just so everyone understands that I think you end up with the family getting together, the family dinner, which may have all ages down to kids, so I understand your motion, but just so folks understand that. CHAIR BADAME: I’m going to add to the discussion here. I have concern with the parking. I also have concern with the intensification of alcohol licenses in our downtown. However, I’m amenable to the overall concept of a cooking school. I think this is something new that will add to family fun and commercial vitality in the downtown, and I believe it would support other businesses as well as LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 97 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 expand resident-oriented services, so I would be supporting the motion. Commissioner Erekson. COMMISSIONER EREKSON: Just so that I clarify when we take that vote that I’m not going to support the motion. I don’t think it’s necessary to preclude alcohol service at events where there are adults and children present. My sense is, although I understand this, the use isn’t being specified as a restaurant. We’re using the logic of a restaurant for the way we’re interpreting the alcoholic beverage thing, and we don’t preclude restaurants from serving alcohol where they have minors present, so I can’t support it on that basis. Then I don’t feel the necessity to eliminate the two lines that Commissioner Hudes wants to eliminate off of Exhibit 5 in that chart. CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Hudes. COMMISSIONER HUDES: With respect to the children and alcohol, I guess the situation I was trying to prevent was not the family dinner where there were adults and children, it was where there was a class and there were adults drinking off on the side. So if there’s a way to maybe clarify that, and that’s why I use the term “children’s events,” that alcohol not be served during LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 98 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 children’s events. Maybe we can modify that language to address that second issue. CHAIR BADAME: Vice Chair Kane. VICE CHAIR KANE: I want to stress this is a recommendation. It’s not a denial, an approval, or a pyramid or something that’s going to live for seven… It’s going to live for a week until it gets to Town Council. The gist of the motion being made is kids in bars. We don’t want kids in bars. People go to a restaurant, they sit down and they have a glass of… This isn’t a restaurant. So it’s uncharted waters, and it’s a recommendation. The intent is well intended that children not be present when alcohol is being served. It’s not a restaurant. So with that recommendation, Commissioner Erekson, I think we’re doing our job of giving a responsible guidance, recommendation, to Town Council. They’ve got to decide this thing. I think we’re giving them a multi-pronged recommendation with a lot of good things to think about. This is not a deciding body. CHAIR BADAME: I’m going to step in here. Commissioner Erekson does have a right to disagree and voice his opinion, and after we hear from him, I’d really like to call the question. Commissioner Erekson. LOS GATOS PLANNING COMMISSION 5/11/2016 Item #3, 22 South Santa Cruz Avenue 99 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 COMMISSIONER EREKSON: After eight years on the Planning Commission I don’t need to be reminded by another Commissioner that I understand that we’re making a recommendation to the Town Council, and that the whole eight years I’ve been on the Planning Commission it’s been clear to me that we can only make recommendations where the Alcoholic Beverage Service Policy of the Town is a part of the application. That being said, I don’t think that it’s an even close interpretation when you use the word “bar” to describe this. It’s not even close to a bar. It may not be a restaurant, but it’s certainly closer to a restaurant than it is to a bar. CHAIR BADAME: Commissioner Erekson, I think we all can agree that we can disagree at times, and I think it’s really time to call the question here, so all in favor? Opposed? Commissioner Erekson opposed. Passes 4-1. Mr. Paulson, since this is just a recommendation to the Town Council, are there appeal rights of the actions of the Commission on this item? JOEL PAULSON: There are not any appeal rights for this item. CHAIR BADAME: Thank you.